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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stonewall, again.

19 replies

NeurotrashWarrior · 09/10/2019 15:06

I've just seen this; sorry if it's posted elsewhere?

Playing concerns down as usual.

So detrans aren't under the umbrella?

www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/dispelling-myths-around-detransition

twitter.com/detransing/status/1181448291659202567?s=21

Stonewall, again.
Stonewall, again.
OP posts:
NeurotrashWarrior · 09/10/2019 15:07

Research linked is from 2003, because - oh wait! People aren't allowed to do research on this. Hmm

OP posts:
NeurotrashWarrior · 09/10/2019 15:08

YouTube didn't even exist in 2003.

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Popchyk · 09/10/2019 15:23

Jesse Singhal did a thread about Stonewall's "research".

twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1181417896901300224

"In neither underlined case does the linked-to research come close to supporting the claim in question".

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 09/10/2019 15:27

Stonewall just keeps digging itself deeper and deeper. It's not what it was, it is no longer fit for purpose.

Popchyk · 09/10/2019 15:53

Stonewall got a new CEO yet?

Because it is looking like nobody will touch them with a bargepole.

SarahTancredi · 09/10/2019 15:55

Stone wall.

Acceptance without exception

Unless you detransition, commit a crime, or are one of those pesky old fashioned lesbians. The ones without a penis.

nauticant · 09/10/2019 16:11

From the Stonewall article:

So let’s start with the reality: most people who transition do so without any regrets. Detransitioning is very rare, but it does happen. Research has shown that less than 1% of the 3,398 trans patients who accessed NHS support went on to detransition.

This tricksily mixes up two groups to fool the reader. The group "most people" will be the full range of those under the trans umbrella including young people whose transition goes no further than making some demands about pronouns and using hair dye. They can detransition with few regrets. The "3,398 trans patients" will contain a much higher proportion of people with gender dysphoria and naturally one would expect a greater commitment to a transition with that transition going much further.

If Mermaids get their way, supported by Stonewall, this will enable the treatments provided to the second group to the first group (reduced gatekeeping). That will change things significantly.

In any case, we're still at early days when many young people fed into the sausage machine of transition still haven't undergone full processing to be transitioned individuals who have had time, including more maturity, to reflect on where they've got to, and then found the courage to discuss this openly.

NeurotrashWarrior · 09/10/2019 16:59

we're still at early days when many young people fed into the sausage machine of transition still haven't undergone full processing to be transitioned individuals who have had time, including more maturity, to reflect on where they've got to, and then found the courage to discuss this openly.

Exactly. This will become an increasing issue. All those mocking and tearing Charlie and co apart, Michelle Moore, James Caspian etc will see more and more young people speaking up and out. Who will represent them?

There will probably always be (real) trans people (unless we descend into an apocalyptical world) and that's fine, but there's so many confused misconceptions around right now that stonewall et al are promoting that actually do harm.

Was just reading a new scientist piece on how individual thought is rare and near impossible now:

*Our culture and the habits of our society are social contracts, and both depend primarily upon social learning. As a result, most of our public beliefs and habits are learned by observing the attitudes, actions and outcomes of peers, rather than by logic or argument.
Learning and reinforcing this social contract is what enables a group of people to coordinate their actions effectively.

Social fabric
It is time that we dropped the fiction of individuals as the unit of rationality, and recognised that our rationality is largely determined by the surrounding social fabric. Instead of being actors in markets, we are collaborators in determining the public good. Indeed, our research has demonstrated that people are much more influenced by their social networks than by individual incentives.*

The death of individuality by Alex Pentland (appears to have researched social media phenomena)

Basically, as we know, Stonewall aren't bloody helping with shit like this.

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MissLawls · 09/10/2019 17:02

Detransitioners = apostasy. The one thing cults simply cannot bear. You can check out any time you like BUT YOU CAN NEVER LEAVE!!!!!

TemporaryPermanent · 09/10/2019 17:12

I just fell down an internet rabbit hole reading Jesse Singal's thread, then his article for The Atlantic, and some of the responses to it.

I just can't equate the article of his that I read with the responses I read. It sounds as if he has become a hate figure and I really can't understand why. His views seem so positive about transition and so moderate.

NeurotrashWarrior · 09/10/2019 18:37

Interestingly, the majority of detransition stories I've read appear to have had supportive families around them (for the transition) so stonewall claiming that family transphobia is the main reason for detransition is erroneous.

In a way, it's easier than ever to be trans socially and yet there are more detransitioning. 🤔

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CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 09/10/2019 19:38

onewall claiming that family transphobia is the main reason

transphobia in this case meaning any family who supports detransition, the "Right" stonewall way is to constantly affirm even if the person has doubts.

GlitterToast · 09/10/2019 19:52

Off topic, but CHARGE YOUR PHONE! Shock

NeurotrashWarrior · 09/10/2019 20:12

Lol I like cruising dangerously close to the ...

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OldCrone · 09/10/2019 20:26

The most common reason for detransition is the person couldn’t cope with the family and community support they lost and the experiences of transphobia. Where others may detransition because they are unable to find a job or housing.

The link from this paragraph is to a paper from 1998. I'm not sure how relevant this is today.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 09/10/2019 21:53

Detransitioning sounds dangerously like trying to leave a cult. Charlie's experiences seem to have a clear resonance with disfellowshipped witnesses or 'suppressive persons', who The Rules say should be shunned and ostracized by everyone on the inside. And anyone from the inside who doesn't obey The Rules will rapidly find themselves in the same position.

Can't be having these heretics challenging an ideology or threatening the integrity of the unit ...

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 09/10/2019 23:25

The linked to research has done a scan of all young people who were seen at GIDS between Aug 2016 and Aug 2017. They looked for clinical records that included the words ‘regret’ or ‘detransition’ and this is where the stats come from. But this cannot support the assertions that Stonewall makes:-

  1. Detransitioners may simply not come back to the clinic. These are ‘lost to follow up’. The study method won’t pick these up and we don’t know how many there are.
  1. There is no long term follow up. The study concluded 2 years ago with young people still presumably at the clinic. Will they come to regret transition as the years wear on and the consequences become clearer? This study can’t tell you, nor can GIDS who have not up to now kept follow up data.
TemporaryPermanent · 09/10/2019 23:46

I can imagine plenty of people desisting/detransitioning without regret. They might just feel it was something they had to do at the time but it is no longer what they need. That's a massive hope for the future, if appropriately supportive treatment with appropriately informed consent is actually provided, but also hugely hacks away at the narrative that people are born trans and it's just how things are and doesn't change. It really might affect how many people proceed to medical transition/surgery if they know that they could feel very differently in the future. How amazing that would be - people living authentic lives without any medicalisation of healthy bodies.

Forgotthebins · 10/10/2019 07:34

In the link in the Stonewall press release to Stonewall's own research report, it says at the end that 51% of the trans and non-binary respondents have a disability. That's really high for a survey population not otherwise connected to disability, about 2.5 X the rate in the working age population. I'm astonished that Stonewall didn't want to examine that further in the report. It's a really significant finding which may affect all the other findings. It just adds to the point by PPs above to show the weakness of Stonewall's research and advocacy. They are not even serving well the needs of the group they have prioritised - if they were responsible and really seeking the best for that group, they would be calling for high quality research.

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