What do you call sex that isn’t rape but you didn’t want?

[lornacariad]

I know this is a real grey area. I’ve booked my first therapy session and just wanted some thoughts on this beforehand. I had sex at the age of 19 which I would not feel comfortable calling rape in that I didn’t say no, and it may not have been obvious to him that I didn’t want to but before, during and after I felt completely and utterly detached and disassociated and wracked with shame afterwards. In short, sex that I unwillingly consented to, I suppose.

Just want to discuss this with my therapist, I have not done anything like this in years but when younger (17-20) I was so extraordinarily passive in sexual situations, just allowing things to happen and then brushing over it, I’m trying to understand why I had no self worth and why I still don’t.

Bless you. Your confidence has taken a knock but you can and will get it back! You don't deserve to be treated like this, you are worthy of so much more. I don't know what else to suggest but yes definitely talk about it to your therapist

This is a good question OP. I experienced similar when I was young and called it a “negative sexual experience-” it’s hard to find the right words. Solidarity to you 💚

Legal definition of rape might help.

Copy-pasting something potentially relevant that I said in another thread: My trauma was triggered by that one-third figure [the proportion of men who think that carrying on after the woman has changed her mind Isn't rape even though legally it is] and the immediate realisation that I had tolerated sex so harmful that it had given me UTIs sooner than tell the man "stop, you're hurting me" because, at some level, I suspected he wouldn't stop and I didn't want to test that and have it proved that I was dating a rapist; I preferred to be "in the dark" and pretend all was well than know the truth.

My point being that sex can be very traumatic withlut being legally rape and situations where we don't say no for fear of the consequences are liekly to be traumatic because of that fear.

"Yes" is meaningless if "no" isn't an option. If you fear that "no" will be ignored or punished, then it isn't an option.

I'm sorry you have had these experiences, and hope that therapy can help you make sense of what has happened.

God, I've been there. Good luck with your therapy.

OP first I would say that it doesn't matter whether or not something has a label. What is important is that you had sex that made you feel uncomfortable and used. Whether or not the men involved knew you were an unwilling participant is to some extent irrelevant, in the sense that you would still have felt shame even if they hadn't realised (obviously their behaviour would have been infinitely worse but I'm here talking purely about the impact on you).

The reasons for the shame may be about the fact that you don't feel empowered to even have control over your own body and this is shaming and underlining a sense of powerlessness generally.

You might think of only starting to tell your therapist about this when you feel you have built up sufficient trust to be able to explore it safely and know you feel comfortable sharing very personal matters. This is part of you learning to build up safe and strong boundaries with others.

I hope it goes well for you OP.

I would say all the sex I had when I was younger fell into this category. It wasn't rape by any means because I consented and never said no. But I mainly did it because I was too tired or drunk to stop it or because I thought I might as well crack on. I wouldn't blame the guys but it certainly wasn't great for me.

Sometimes I have to wonder about the mental / emotional state of men who don't care (?) possibly don't even notice (??) that their intravaginal masturbation isn't merely boring. It's revolting. They are revolting. And they seem to be fine with that. You'd need to tamp yourself down to about the emotional capacity of a goldfish to do that.

(Sorry. Off-topic, I realize. But just boggling, thinking about the men in this multiply repeated icky story.)

Yes this happened to me loads at uni, I was a real mess. I met my partner when still in this state so had a couple of these types of experiences when we had already met although weren’t serious. I put it all to the back of my mind for years but it’s really resurfaced and it’s something I wish I could discuss with him, but I fear being judged. I think unless you know what I’m talking about which it seems like many of you do, it’s hard to empathise - people think, ‘should have just said no and left!’ or whatever but it was so hard when my self worth was nonexistent and I had learnt nothing about boundaries etc. Anyway hopefully talking to a therapist will be the way forward for me.

quixote9 To view a woman as a masturbation sheath, they have to think of us as not-people, as a thing. I suppose this is what's meant by "sexual objectification": men think of us as an object to use for sex.

I struggle to understand it myself because I can't think of a bigger turn-off than a partner who doesn't want sex. The gold standard for consent isn't "s/he said yes twenty minutes ago" but "s/he said yes, is actively participating, and is emotionally and mentally present... and I will stop and check if I suspect otherwise" (pdf). That excludes a dissociated partner by definition. Sadly, a third of guys don't think consent should be retractable so I'm giving them all a miss.

Apologies OP, we seem to have hijacked your thread for consciousness-raising.

OP, I think you’re making great progress already. You’ve identified what was actually going on, recognised it as abusive, diagnosed your own low self esteem, and you have a treatment plan in place, i.e. seeing a therapist and working through it.
Feel proud of yourself for how far you’ve come from that passive, frightened little teenager.
And look forward positively to the time when your therapy is over and you are a confident adult with healthy boundaries. My best wishes for the journey - may it be life changing! God bless.

Seconding what Babdoc said.

it may not have been obvious to him that I didn’t want to

This is one of the bits I've always had the most trouble getting my head around. The fact that for so many men, subtle 'no' cues make no impression whatsoever, and it never occurs to them to check.

I've had a fair few of those incidents too, OP. I tend to think of them as "some fucker tripped my conditioning without even realising." The r-word I reserve for the two who were told 'no' and kept pushing anyway, and the one who thought his dick was a magic cure for a very drunk woman in the midst of a PTSD-meltdown.

It's also one of those areas where I've come to realise the language we're expected to use is determined and defined by men, and it really doesn't capture my female experiences.

My XH never raped me, I’d never suggest he did, but what he did do was pester, constantly. Not in an overt way, it was more me saying ‘no, I don’t feel like it,’ then him whining about how horny he still was, constantly drawing attention to his erection and putting my hand on it etc. A lost of the time I felt so uncomfortable that I’d just tell him to get on with it, just so it would be over.

His idea of getting consent went like ‘oh fine, go on then’ in an exasperated voice. ‘Are you sure?’ Me, getting more exasperated, ‘yes, just do it.’

It was coercive, I know that, but I did say yes, and he didn’t actually do anything until I’d given my grudging consent.

Then when he’d had his 15 seconds of fun I’d go straight to the bathroom to clean up. He’d follow me and ask if I was alright. I’d just say ‘yeah, fine’ in a dead sounding voice then finish up and return to bed. Then he’d be all concerned because he could see I wasn’t happy. I’d end up saying ‘I said yes didn’t I?’ and turning away.

I felt sick and violated every time, but then I’d just been conditioned to put up with it. My mother told me to lie back and think of england. Even now it makes me feel sick.

More than that I’m not sure how anyone can want sex like that.I would stop if I thought my current DP wasn’t into it and I have done several times. I only ever had sex with one man, I was never into men anyway so at least I’ll never have the urge. I just don’t get for how for some of them sex is like a bodily function, like needing a piss, completely devoid of the need for any intimacy.

Whatisthisfuckery You deserved better than someone who knew full well that you weren't interested and coerced you anyway.

I had an ex who would self-harm and blame it on me because I wasn't interested in sex (strangely that happens when a man makes a woman feel like shit). So eventually I gave in. I was so dry that the friction hurt me, and of course I had cystitis again.

I call it rape because consent given under threat of violence is not valid consent and his violence against himself is still violence that I am conditioned into taking responsibility for stopping. You might disagree but in truth, it doesn't actually matter whether we call it rape: if men are coercing us, we are not truely giving consent and they are showing contempt for us and our bodies. The trauma disclosed by PPs bears witness to the adverse impact of male sexual coercion on women. We deserve better and should be less afraid of being alone than being with an asshole.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to minimize anybody’s trauma. I still feel sick and dirty years on, and there was no violence around sex, although he was violent twoards me several times.I just don’t call what happened to me rape because technically it wasn’t. I call it coercion, because that was what it was. It’s that horrible grey area between having someone force themself on you and being so worn down that you give in anyway. It would be unfair of me to call him a rapist, not because I want to spare him or excuse him, I don’t want to do that, but he didn’t actually force himself on me.

What he did was coerced me into sex I didn’t want. I’m very clear about that and that it’s not acceptable.

What he did was coerced me into sex I didn’t want. I’m very clear about that and that it’s not acceptable.

I don't think you're minimising anyone's trauma. I don't think we are actually disagreeing substantially either. I refer you back to my earlier statement: "in truth, it doesn't actually matter whether we call it rape: if men are coercing us, we are not truly giving consent and they are showing contempt for us and our bodies".

You have every right to be angry about that, regardless of whether he committed an offence under section one of the Sexual Offences Act 2003.

I don't think it helps either that society conditions the man to 'give chase' and that so many romcoms feature the 'unlucky in love' protagonist who finally wins over the woman after many spurned attempts.

The trope of 'playing hard to get' is never one which is applied to men.

OP a therapist once told me that there's the legal definition of rape, which is very important and has its place, and then there's other sexual violations that have the same impact on the victim as legal rape, but no name that is strong enough to describe them.

And if we ask "What sort of man finds sex pleasurable with a woman who isn't actively enjoying herself?" I think it makes it clearer.

This doesn't mean it's legal rape, but I find it helps me understand where the experiences fit in in a wider context.

Another thing I find useful is thinking about the conversations/exchanges in a different setting.
If you had a piece of cake and he wanted to eat it and you responded in the same way as you did to the sexual encounters would he have been an arse to take and eat the cake? Yes.

My point is it's important to self-reflect, but remember too that if you over self-reflect, you can end up forgetting that it wasn't you having sex with someone who wasn't really into it.

The title of our thread has struck a chord with me OP. My H would start groping me at 5.30am. He would tap me on the head and I would turn over like a trained monkey while he had sex with me. He wouldn't ever kiss me or stroke my neck or say anything nice to me just stick it in till he was done then try to bring me off (for his pleasure, not mine). Just horrible.

we ask "What sort of man finds sex pleasurable with a woman who isn't actively enjoying herself?"

I can't think of a bigger turn-off than realising that my man-of-the-moment/woman-of-the-week isn't actually interested. Yet Pornhub is full of men sadistically hurting women for sexual pleasure, going far beyond fucking someone who isn't interested.

What is wrong with men?