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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

USA: Harris Funeral Homes v EEOC and Aimee Stephens

77 replies

GrinitchSpinach · 29/09/2019 17:57

I have been meaning to post on this important case due to be argued before the US Supreme Court October 8, 2019, but have put it off because it's a bit complicated. I think most of us here would support Stephens' desire to wear appropriate attire regardless of sex stereotypes, but the legal precedent that could be set here is extremely important.

A male person who now identifies as a woman called Aimee Stephens was dismissed from a position at a funeral home because of Stephens' unwillingness to wear the business attire required for Stephens' sex by the employer.(This is not illegal in the United States).

Importantly, Stephens and lawyers have not argued that the different standards for attire based on sex are unconstitutional; instead my understanding is that they have argued that Stephens is indeed a woman based on gender identity, and for that reason is entitled to wear the professional attire expected of women in this industry.

The following recent USA Today article explores the implications for women's and girls' sports, but in fact the decision will have consequences reaching far beyond sports and employment. Women's Liberation Front has filed a friend-of-the-court brief on the side of Harris, in order to argue for the preservation of the legal definition of sex in America.

Since the advent of Title IX — a federal law that expanded athletic and educational opportunities for women — millions of girls and women have benefited from their own teams and chances for growth. But these opportunities risk being redefined and obliterated, because of a case pending before the U.S. Supreme Court... The case centers on the question of whether the meaning of the word "sex" in employment law (Title VII) also covers gender identity...Not only should business owners be able to rely on the plain meaning of the law, courts shouldn’t take on Congress’s job and reinvent the meaning of “sex.”
www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2019/09/27/transgender-athletes-supreme-court-sex-equality-column/2421776001/

“Congress knew very well what the word ‘sex’ means when it included that word in the list of categories of people in need of civil rights protections,” said Kara Dansky, who serves on the board of the Women’s Liberation Front. “There is no basis, nor is there any reason, for this Court to hold that sex means anything other than what everyone knows it means.”
WoLF additionally argues that to require an employer, or anyone, to believe and/or state that men can be women violates the First Amendment. “The notion that a man can be a woman, or that a woman can be a man, is nothing other than a belief system, adhered to by a very small segment of society,” said Natasha Chart, the WoLF board Chair. “No one should be required to agree with that belief system, or to use compelled speech to further it.”
womensliberationfront.org/womens-liberation-front-files-friend-of-the-court-brief-in-harris-funeral-homes-v-eeoc-and-aimee-stephens/

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WombOfOnesOwn · 02/10/2019 18:03

You know, apropos of nothing, the first Aimee I ever really knew about...

was Aimee Mann.

Just sayin'.

GrinitchSpinach · 08/10/2019 17:03

The Hill published an opinion piece by Kara Dansky of WoLF this morning:

thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/464325-harris-v-eeoc-and-the-womens-rights-legacy-of-ruth-bader-ginsburg

What is a woman? In oral arguments scheduled for today, the Supreme Court soon will consider this question...

The question now before the Supreme Court is whether Congress intended sex to mean “gender identity” when it wrote the Civil Rights Act...

The word “sex” does not equate to some vague, ill-defined concept of “gender identity.” Women have been discriminated against for thousands of years because we are biologically women, not because of “identity.”

WoLF is in this fight this because we care about the rights, privacy and safety of women and girls, as does Supreme Court Associate Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. We hope that she will side with us. Justice Ginsburg long has argued that women deserve justice under the law, on the basis of sex.

I will be incredibly sad if the wonderful, "notorious" RBG of all people sides with a belief in gendered souls over the material reality of biological sex.

I am desperate for updates on the oral arguments underway today, and anything from WoLF's rally, but I'm not sure where to look. WoLF's official account isn't tweeting about it yet.

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FWRLurker · 08/10/2019 18:28

Here’s NPRs coverage... Nina totenberg covers the Supreme Court. I usually love her but I almost am afraid to listen.

Blurb says the case “tests whether employers are free to fire employees because they are gay or transgender” which is not what is being argued (even though it SHOULD be). They are trying to slip this in without anyone the wiser.

www.npr.org/tags/125938785/supreme-court

jellyfrizz · 08/10/2019 18:29

I also think that when legislators draft laws with the word 'sex' that is what it should mean.

^^This. Because gender is not sex.

Laws on work attire is a whole different argument.

FWRLurker · 08/10/2019 18:36

Ok her coverage was pretty good. They even brought up the title 9 / sports issue.

nauticant · 08/10/2019 18:43

There is this report:

eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/10/08/gay-rights-supreme-court-divided-lgbt-job-discrimination/3902186002/

Either the reporting's a bit off or the legal arguments are not exactly on point.

GrinitchSpinach · 08/10/2019 18:51

I didn't like the Nina Totenberg piece much. It elided smoothly, and IMO disingenuously, between the homosexual complainants and the trans one.

It also left the Stanford woman with a sort of a "last word" on the matter, saying (with no evidence) that this case would certainly not have any implications for sex-based rights outside of Title XII.

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GrinitchSpinach · 08/10/2019 19:12

Looks like the male privilege activists shouted down Linda Bellos, amongst other speakers. What progressivism! Right side of history for sure.

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GrinitchSpinach · 08/10/2019 19:14

Here is the long, chaotic Facebook feed I am watching:

www.facebook.com/WLRNews4Women/videos/365280821021447/

I can just about hear Linda shouting "The rights of WOMEN!" SO much love to her and my UK sisters trying to support us here.

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GrinitchSpinach · 08/10/2019 19:17

I mean is it just me, or do chants of "Go home, homophobe!" ring hollow when directed against lesbians?

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GrinitchSpinach · 08/10/2019 19:18

Kara Dansky starting a "Sex not gender!" chant.

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GrinitchSpinach · 08/10/2019 19:23

Didn't catch the name of the next speaker, but she says in part, "I am concerned about young women;" "I am concerned about girls;" "We met remind the world that our behavior is not wrong; our bodies are not wrong; our SOCIETY is wrong! Female does not mean weak or subservient or wrong!"

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GrinitchSpinach · 08/10/2019 19:23

"Don't erase women!"

(Male voice: "you're doing that!")

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FWRLurker · 08/10/2019 19:25

Yes, that is fair enough that eliding the issues is wrong. However that’s how the court has decided to take The cases - treating them as essentially about the same issue when they aren’t. It’s a strategy that I hope would backfire.

Also some of the arguments were dumb like “well if an employee is a man one day and shows up as a woman the next surely firing them is sex discrimination since the only thing that’s changed is their gender”

  1. this ignores completely that sex is not gender and their sex has not changed

  2. the employer is arguing their client had to be dressed “according to the sex specific dress code” so the mode of appearance had also changed.

Ultimately Aimee would not have been fired if she had been willing to dress in a suit. I think it’s stupid you can fire someone for what they wear but what do I know.

I was fearing it would be so much worse and one sided than it was, so I think I was pleasantly surprised..

GrinitchSpinach · 08/10/2019 19:26

"Biology is not bigotry!" (Trans activists shout, klaxon in order to drown the message out outside the US Supreme Court)

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GrinitchSpinach · 08/10/2019 19:34

"My daughter is on the autism spectrum" (speaker)

"Hypocrite! hypocrite! woooooooooooooooo! " (protestors)

Seriously, if the kicking on windows at the recent Brighton meeting upset any of you, you should see how poisonous this atmosphere is in the US outside our actual Supreme Court right now!

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DuMondeB · 08/10/2019 19:44

There is some video footage from outside the court on the Women’s Liberation Radio News Facebook page

m.facebook.com/WLRNews4Women/

GrinitchSpinach · 08/10/2019 19:46

Thanks, B! Looks like Alexis, one of the plaintiffs in the Boyertown case, spoke too. Such admiration for this young woman!

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GrinitchSpinach · 08/10/2019 19:49

Middle aged white men shouting down this young black woman about her experience with penis in the changing room.... Its quite a look.

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TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 08/10/2019 19:54

If only Harris Funeral Homes had had the good sense (I agree that one sort of expects undertakers to be wearing "background" neutral clothes) to change their dress rules so that for both men and women the rule was "plain dark trousers and jacket and plain shirt, optionally with tie".

GrinitchSpinach · 08/10/2019 20:06

Well, typical male dress as the “default/neutral” is another issue again, but it’s not that to which Stephens objects...

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skql · 08/10/2019 20:22

when can we get the outcome?

GrinitchSpinach · 08/10/2019 22:14

The Court will hand down a decision by the end of its session next summer, but there is no firm timeline before that.

In the meantime everyone tries to read the tea leaves...

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GrinitchSpinach · 08/10/2019 23:13

I haven’t finished watching the footage yet, but it looks like some of the loudest shouting (“Go home homophobe; trans girls are GIRLS!) was reserved for a teenage girl athlete (couldn’t hear her name over all the shouting) and Bianca Stanescu, mother of Selina Soule, one of the Connecticut teenage girl athletes bringing suit for sex discrimination under title IX.

Almost as if these male privilege activists realize that when the public connects all the dots of the movement, starting with something so obvious as girls’ sports, the whole legal house of cards will come tumbling down.

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