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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Advice needed from Catholic feminists

17 replies

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 25/09/2019 14:14

A friend of mine is in an abusive marriage. Not physically, to my knowledge, but mentally, emotionally, financially, and I suspect sexually. She's in a really bad state, scared of her own shadow, a ghost of herself. They've been together a long time but it really ramped up 2 years ago when their daughter was born. She's agreed to try and do the freedom course but says she can't leave him because of her Catholic values. She thinks that God has combined their souls into one and they can never separate. I don't know much about Catholicism, and as a life long atheist the entire concept of souls is so far removed from my beliefs that I don't know what to say. I don't want to dismiss or belittle her opinion, but I also don't believe what she believes and hate that something I think is untrue is keeping her and her daughter trapped in this abuse. Can anyone give me any advice on how to help her, or at least relate to her beliefs so I can listen and support her more effectively?

OP posts:
Annasgirl · 25/09/2019 14:28

Well I am a Catholic and Catholics do not believe that souls are united in marriage - if they did, they would not allow widows or widowers to remarry in church!!

Also, my friend, a priest, supported his mother to leave his abusive father, so clearly, priests do not believe that you are entwined with your abusive husband.

I don't know how you can support your friend, it is really difficult when someone puts up barriers to doing something that you think is so logical, but I really think the religious belief is a red herring as it is not founded in modern (or to my knowledge, even old-fashioned) theology.

Perhaps listen and support her and be there when she gets the strength to leave?

SonEtLumiere · 25/09/2019 14:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Outofexcuses · 25/09/2019 14:41

Why don’t you ring your local Catholic Church and ask to speak to the priest? Tell him the situation and ask for advice on what to say to her. I don’t think many priests these days would advise staying with an abusive man, particularly when there’s a child to consider.

Breathlessness · 25/09/2019 14:45

‘Greg Pope is the assistant general secretary for the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales, which recently held their annual Day for Life, a day set aside for raising awareness of various pro-life issues. This year, they chose domestic violence as the theme of the day.

Pope told CNA that domestic violence “fundamentally undermines the Church’s teaching on the inherent dignity of the human person and the complementarity of couples within a marriage.”

He said that Catholic couples experiencing domestic abuse should know that Canon Law, the governing law of the Church, addresses domestic violence, and states: “If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.” (Can. 1153 §1.)

“The Church does not force anyone to remain in an abusive relationship,” Pope reiterated.’

LaBarbera · 25/09/2019 14:55

I am Catholic and I have had nothing but support and understanding in leaving my marriage -- and it wasn't abusive, just unhealthy and causing me pain. As I have been told over and over, the Church does not see any marriage as valid unless it is free of abuse, entered into willingly, and both parties understand and honour their commitments. The annulment process exists for a reason. I wonder if your friend has been badly advised (REALLY badly advised, and dishonestly too).

Depending where she is, I may know someone she could talk to at least informally. I know a lot of really sensible priests and sisters who would listen compassionately and hopefully set her right. Please feel free to PM me.

Goosefoot · 25/09/2019 15:04

Like Annasgirl says, your friend's idea is a bit confused, though I can see why she might have got that idea. Or it may be that she is just expressing it in a confused way.

There is a sense in which the Catholic Church says that when people marry, they become joined in a way that is not just a legal arrangement, it is more like an organic union. It sounds odd but you could think of it in the sense that when you marry, your spouse is not just a person you have a contract with, they are a part of your family just like your blood relations, and you are tied to them in a way that has a really permanent quality, even if you are estranged, it's not like dissolving a business partnership.

But your friend is wrong to think that the church would want her to stay in an abusive marriage. I think she's likely find that almost any priest who understood what was going on would help her work through leaving that kind of situation. Priests do want to see marriages heal where that is possible but most these days have pretty realistic assessments of when the situation is abusive and that is not a good option, and they will try to help someone in your friend's situation to see that. Practically that may just be separation or it may be legal divorce, both are allowed in those kinds of circumstances.

There is however a difficulty for Catholics, which is the teaching about what happens after that sort of divorce or separation. From the Catholic perspective, that organic union, though the legal part may no longer apply, cannot actually ever be totally undone, and so remarriage isn't allowed. That's a pretty hard thing to face for a lot of people and it may well be part of your friend's reluctance.

One possibility that can be looked into after a legal divorce, is the possibility of annulment (not legally, within the Catholic Church.) What this says is that the conditions for a valid marriage were not met in the first place, and so there was never that organic union. This doesn't look directly at what went on after the marriage happened, it looks at what happened before and at the time of the marriage. (Something that would clearly qualify would be someone who lied about their identity or was already married.) So an abusive marriage doesn't necessarily qualify for annulment. In practice however a lot of marriages like that, especially if the abuse was pretty much on-going from the beginning, do - essentially because the abusive spouse never intended to live according to his vows.

The annulment process takes some time and involves a sort of investigation. I've found a surprising number of people who get one feel that it is actually a positive experience, that it required a lot of reflection on the choices they made that resulted in marrying an abuser, and why they made them. But it's not a guarantee, sometimes an annulment isn't granted. (Possibly worth noting as well, if your friend is Catholic, and married in a secular setting or a non-Catholic church, without securing permission from her bishop, an annulment is fairly quick and easy to obtain.)

I hope some of this is helpful in giving you some insight. I think the most important element is that staying in an abusive marriage would be seen as not taking proper care of oneself, and that's no more allowed than divorce on a whim.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 25/09/2019 22:44

Thanks everyone for those really detailed and helpful insights. I'm delighted to hear that the church would support someone to leave an abusive marriage, and yes I suspect she has been dishonestly advised. You may well be right Annasgirl about it being a red herring - I've been in an abusive relationship myself and spent a lot of time giving myself reasons why I couldn't leave to hide the fact I was simply too scared to. Like many abusive men he's also fed her a bunch of crap about how she's an unfit mother and if she ever left he'd have the kid taken off her (despite the fact he doesn't lift a finger to care for her etc etc). It's a painfully familiar script. She has chronic health issues as well, and he controls all the money. So the religious thing may be an easy way for her to just shut it down as even being a possibility. Hopefully she's do the freedom course and then maybe that'll lead to her feeling able to talk to a priest or someone in the future about it.

Thank's LaBarbera I may PM you in the future. We're in Wales. It's so hard to see her living like this, and heart breaking to know what it'll do to the daughter. To think of the little girl growing up in that house makes me so sad. Why are men like this? It makes me sick and furious.

Anyway, thanks again for all the advice.

OP posts:
NKFell · 25/09/2019 23:40

I’m Catholic and my Catholic friend was granted an annulment after leaving a mentally abusive marriage. She also says she couldn’t have got through it without the Church. Like a pp said she needs to have a good chat with a priest.

2BthatUnnoticed · 27/09/2019 11:44

I’m Catholic. I’d approach it from the angle of what’s best for her daughter, as well as her. Sometimes you can’t find the strength to act for yourself - but can for your children.

By leaving, she will be taking her daughter into a happier, more positive life.

I had my child as a single (never married) mom (partner left me), and was worried about being judged by the Church. In fact I found a lot of love and support there, it was never remotely an issue. Hopefully it will be the same for your friend.

Best of luck to her, and you are a great friend Flowers

KatvonHostileExtremist · 27/09/2019 12:28

Echoing the advice to chat to the priest. I also know someone who's marriage was annulled for reasons of domestic violence. I also know many divorced people who continue to play big roles in our parish.

I wish your friend all the best, and hope she can get the help she needs x

notyourhandmaid · 28/09/2019 21:52

She thinks that God has combined their souls into one and they can never separate.

Nope. Not a thing. But if she's saying that, her own parish priest might be advocating ideas of that kind, so if she can have a chat with someone else - maybe if you were to reach out to your own local church? - that might be useful.

You're being a good friend to her. x

HavelockVetinari · 28/09/2019 22:02

@2BthatUnnoticed has a good idea - try to help her understand the damage staying with him is doing to her DD. The longer she is exposed to it, the greater the damage.

And PPs have it right - the church does not sanction abuse in marriage, and would be fine with separation. She may even get an annulment, although it is a long process.

Italiangreyhound · 29/09/2019 02:38

I'm not Catholic, but I am a Christian. (I am C of E.)

God is a God of love and your friend needs to know that staying in an abusive relationship is not good for her, or her child, or even for her husband. If she stays with him, and this allows him to continue the abuse, it will be bad for him too. (Of course, I don't care about him but your friend might.)

Forgotthebins · 29/09/2019 06:28

Not Catholic but married to one, echo all points above that the Church would usually support people leaving an abusive marriage. However you never know what happens locally, so her local Priest/church might be her best source of support or her worst enemy. If it's possible for her to link into any groups or women's circles at the church, that may be a way to see if that support is available without attracting too much attention from her abusive husband and for her to readjust her perspective. As someone else said, you're being a good friend. Flowers to you and her.

ZestyDragon · 30/09/2019 13:03

I had an abusive marriage. I spoke to my local priest a few times who ended up begging me to leave my husband as he was so concerned about my safety. I received nothing but kindness and support from the church. I will say, however, that there are still some priests who believe in sticking it out. My very elderly compassionate local priest was not one of these.

thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter · 30/09/2019 13:14

I agree with Forgotthebins, sadly it's hit and miss in regards to individual priests and attitudes. My local priest is right on/woke with everything else (don't get me started on him not giving a shit about safeguarding) but not women's rights.

Carowiththegoodhair · 01/10/2019 00:31

Sorry I have just seen this. The Catholic Church does not force people to stay in abusive marriages and recognises/supports those who need to leave abusive situations.

Without going into the specifics very often in cases where there has been abuse in a marriage it’s a sign that the marriage was not sacramental in the first place because abusive people can have a deep-seated psychological problem which impedes their ability to consent.

That’s not always the case of course, but if she married a man who had no intention of treating her as anything other than an object to gratify his own desires, then his intentions (which are an important part of the sacrament) could mean that the marriage was null from the get go.

The joining of souls thing is bizarre, we are only ever married in this life.

You can PM me if you like. I know a sympathetic priest with a lot of experience who can chat to her. I also know priests who urge women that if they are in abusive situation that getting out is the only right and moral thing to do, especially if there are children

I suspect though that your friend needs to come to this realisation herself.

I’ve been through an annulment and the only people who have ever been nasty about it are the non-Catholics, who told me that I had made my daughter illegitimate and how terrible that must be for her. (She’s not and even if she was, who cares?!) Lots of divorced people in Catholic parishes, life is messy, but God calls us to holiness through it all.

Nothing holy about deliberately placing yourself in harms way. Flowers to your friend.

Women were created equal, different, not subordinate, but equal. A man is supposed to care for, love and treasure his wife. Not batter and rape her.

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