Safeguarding Training - was I wrong to challenge this?

[Trohmaniac]

I work in a secondary school. New academic year, new government policies, safeguarding training today. Delivered by a woman from the local council who likes to make it fun and interesting where she can.

Today she mentioned upskirting, because it's been added to the guidelines and is something else we should be aware of. She said 'this is now illegal...some people also wanted to make wolf-whistling illegal too.' Groans and huffs from around the room. 'I don't know about you but I'm at that age now where I appreciate that sort of thing.' I was gobsmacked - everyone else laughed.

Before the training today all staff were sent the relevant parts of policy and asked to read through them. And there was a section in there about challenging comments such as 'boys will be boys' and 'it's just banter' from staff when girls complain about sexual harassment from their male peers.

I didn't challenge it in front of the room but I waited behind afterwards and said that I didn't think she should be making jokes about wolf-whistling as it buys into 'boys will be boys' behaviour and that if wolf-whistling is seen as a joke amongst adults why would it be taken seriously if a teenaged girl complains it's happening to her?

She said she could see how it was wrong to do it to young girls and I said it's wrong to do it full stop. I also said that it never comes from a place of being a compliment and she looked at me like I had two heads.

Thinking more on this it smacks, to me, of 'this behaviour is wrong but only while you're under 18 and once you're over 18 you just have to accept that it's part of your life as a woman and hey, some of us like it so suck it up.' It feels like the wrong message was being sent to the adults present and just affirmed that 'silly feminists making a fuss over a compliment'.

Was I the wrong here? She said she encourages constructive criticism and that she will bear it in mind for future sessions.

She was completely inappropriate. Report her to the council safeguarding board. Safeguarding is a serious issue and training needs to be delivered properly.

No, you were not wrong. That's an ridiculous thing for her to have said - poor that she thinks it but to actually say it in that training is ridiculous.

Did you feel that she would take it on board? Is there a more formal mechanism to feedback? You seem to generally like her training but nevertheless she doesn't seem suited to delivering this one.

I'm personally glad you challenged it and you seem to have done it in lovely way too.

It was more that everyone laughed - these are all people working in a secondary school. I've come across some shocking attitudes towards kids before and I live in a part of the country that's slightly behind with their attitudes (golliwogs are still routinely on sale in some gift shops), but I just can't get my head round that adults working with teenagers think any kind of sexual harassment is amusing because 'no one gets hurt and it's only a compliment, innit darling?'.

I think she possibly will take it on board and I think if I took it any further there would just be massive eye-rolls at the other end. I really wish I'd had the guts to stand up and say something to the room but I'm not that brave.

Report her to the council safeguarding board. Safeguarding is a serious issue and training needs to be delivered properly.

I don't like what she said, I think it's particularly bad in context because it undermines the training, but people don't need to face disciplinaries for every mistake.

Challenging her was admirable, OP. You handled it well. That's enough.

Disagree. I don't think she's likely to take the OPs complaint seriously, given her attitude she'll just brush it off as OP being oversensitive. Being told that she can't do that during safeguarding training by a superior would be more effective.

You were right to challenge her. Hopefully on reflection she will realise how inappropriate that comment was.

Good for you OP!

I'd make a complaint. This shit is just constant for women and I think your point about not putting up with it after turning 18 is spot on!

We have been told by men for many years that it is a compliment when we are the target of a male dominance display like cat calling and wolf whistles. I am glad you told her. In her position she needs the truth. I hope she thought it through.
Clearly the training needs to include a bit on the dozens of male dominance displays, both public and private, that children are exposed to daily.

Good for you.
These are the day to day micro aggressions that need challenging.
Women laughing along with the joke doesn't make it right. It's their conditioning that has minimised this behaviour as being acceptable/inoffensive.

You did the right thing, she needs pulling up on her attitude. If the person who delivers the training sneers at the content, they undermine it. This is how society tells boys its ok to harass women on the street, that we don't really mind.

You definitely did the right thing.

I tend to be fairly blasé about certain things that bother others, and I think she was inappropriate and you were right to say something.

I think there is room for thinking about the best way to deal with some of these behaviours in students, disciplinary processes aren't always the best. Sometimes what kids need is someone to talk to them about the implications of what they are doing. And it does sometimes happen that interactions that were fine or kids making real jokes (not mean ones) get them trouble because the person in charge is a bit of an idiot.

And I suppose you can't really argue if some people say they don't mind being whistled at, they know their own minds.

But a) that doesn't make it appropriate at school or work, which is the situation in this discussion and b) up-skirting surely falls into a whole other category anyway, more like taking a secret photo in the toilets, which I am thinking most people find an invasion of privacy.

You did the right thing. If one's routine or circumstances are such that it doesn't happen to one, maybe the concept doesn't convey the intimidation that it generally comes with.

It's not a compliment just because it's often directed towards someone considered attractive by the perpetrator.

Anyone who has challenged a 'cat call' knows full well that it's backed up by threat.

She should know that.

I also always think that training should provoke people to reflect on their behaviour not just for that specific situation but more widely. She basically advocated for a view that harassment is acceptable. You were right to challenge discretely and I would follow up an appropriate escalation route too.

Thank you for challenging that. You were right to do so, and it's the only way these long ingrained - often unexamined - beliefs are changed.

For what it's worth, the idea harassment is a compliment may please some people. What about those who find it threatening?

I walked past a building site today and remembered how I used to tense up as I did so. Noted how pleasant it was now a builder wouldn't dream of calling/shouting/whistling these days. Imagine being on the same footing as men - not an object for their amusement, assessment, judgement or response. Just a person, walking past.

You were NOT wrong. And I hope if you (or anyone reading this_) encounters this again, you might feel brave enough to say what you said publicly.

Or phrase it as a question ie. How does your comment align with the material we've been given to read? It says here (page no) and here, that we should challenge in others & avoid ourselves using truisms such as "Boys will be boys."

And so on - sometimes turning your comment into a question can cause the other person to have to stop & think. And it might it feel so confrontational for you.

This is all advice to myself

You were right. And in challenging her you are setting a good example to young girls. We have to take this seriously and I find it wholly inappropriate that the trainer behaved in this way.

At our safeguarding training this subject was discussed as seriously as all other issues.

The way it reads it’s as if she thinks “upskirting now being illegal” is stupid and “what next - wolf whistling?” she wants to show that she’s one of those cool women who thinks this is all over the top
OT but upskirting was never legal - there have been convictions for Outraging Public Decency even when the victim didn’t know about it. Mainly BTP prosecutions as this is a problem on the railway

This is from 2013.
www.communitycare.co.uk/2013/12/16/social-worker-caught-taking-photos-womans-skirt-train-platform-struck-register/

Well done you for challenging. I bet this was the one time they didn't give out evaluation sheets at the end of the session.

Who is responsible for safeguarding at the school. I would be contacting them, formally, via email, to say you would like this followed up with the course providers.

I think you did the right thing.
I view wolf whistling as the thin end of a nasty wedge. Wolf whistling, crass comments, getting in too close, unwanted physical contact.
Even if the whistler in question doesn't have what they consider to be malicious intentions, why on earth do they think that a random woman walking past wants to know what he thinks of her?
You did the right thing op.

Actually, we weren't asked for feedback! Interesting.

I did mention to her also that ten years ago people would have scoffed at upskirting being an issue and that certain - male - MPs tried to block the bill going through as they thought it was ridiculous.

It infuriates me that so many of my colleagues would, supposedly, be disgusted at one of our teenage girls being wolf-whistled but in adult women it's meant to be a compliment.

Thank you all for making me feel better - it was really nerve-wracking for me to go and say something to her. I've never tackled something like that before and my genuine first thought was 'how would the FWR lot deal with this', so thanks for giving me the courage to call problematic stuff out.

She was completely inappropriate. Report her to the council safeguarding board. Safeguarding is a serious issue and training needs to be delivered properly
^^
This. Good for you for challenging op