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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Civility, reasonableness, and those rules

260 replies

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/09/2019 20:35

So, since I'm most likely on my way out anyway, why not start a conversation about this? I just received a warning/threat for posting a Widow Twanky joke (not directed at any specific person) in a thread. Not sure which one, because the very keen to enforce deference upon women person who sent it forgot to include a link to the thread they were complaining about, maybe Munroe Bergdorf and the silly FB ad? Anyway, apparently this breaks the guidelines, which does rather raise the point of whether those guidelines are in any way fit for purpose. You're trying to ban jokes? On this site? On any British site? You are aware that our pointed humor is somewhat of a national trait and something we're often admired for in other parts of the world?

I think that this is neither reasonable nor constructive, and I do not agree that it in any way helps to facilitate debate. I also do not think it's reasonable or constructive to have moderation that enables the targeting and therefore harassment of specific users with the aim of preventing them from participating in the debate. Numerous longtime commenters have been picked off this way, the most recent one being Lass (a person who I often disagreed with but respected, and who deserved the right to speak). This space is less interesting and less useful as a result of their being removed at the behest of angry TRAs and/or regular old blokes who don't like women critiquing the sex industry (which I assume is what happened to Lass).

Apparently MNHQ recently had a big internal conversation about this (or at least they said they were going to), and what has emerged is a continuance of the special rules that only apply to feminists being applied in a way that censors women's opinions and stifles debate in order to avoid upsetting male people with delicate egos. Do we think this is reasonable?

(If I vanish you know why - suspended for insubordination. If I can peak a few more people on the way out then I'm absolutely fine with that. I am still Spartacus.)

OP posts:
testing987654321 · 27/09/2019 07:11

you let posters know if they have had a post deleted?+
Yes – we'll mail posters when we delete one of their posts.

Ooh interesting. I mean it makes sense to let people you know you are deleting their posts. I wonder when they changed their minds? Want to let us know MNHQ?

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer · 27/09/2019 07:31

Well it seems very obvious to me

I get an email to say that they have deleted a post ive reported

They need to tell the poster concerned that they have deleted their post, they could use a traffic light system (which I appreciate may be a bit of a faff and not work) to tell you whether its a deletion bad enough for a potential suspension

I am fairly positive that they DONT tell you they are deleting one of your posts because MOST people dont notice and they dont want to draw it to your attention

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 27/09/2019 07:48

I am fairly positive that they DONT tell you they are deleting one of your posts because MOST people dont notice and they dont want to draw it to your attention

That’s a very interesting way of looking at it Rufus and one I hadn’t thought of. Makes perfect sense though. Why rattle posters cages, just causes lots of awkward correspondence

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer · 27/09/2019 08:00

Why rattle posters cages, just causes lots of awkward correspondence

Exactly

TheAlternativeTentacle · 27/09/2019 08:03

Also, they then have to explain why, when often there literally is no rule broken, it's just not 'in the spirit'.

Basically, don't upset men and all is well.

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer · 27/09/2019 08:04

It must be that

The facility to email following a deletion exists...they just dont want to do it

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer · 27/09/2019 08:05

thealternative

Yep

2BthatUnnoticed · 27/09/2019 09:02

@MNHQ I appreciate that emailing posters when you delete them adds additional work.

Might your tech people consider writing a macro which auto-emails the poster when you press the “delete” button?

I.e. a generic “your post has been deleted, here is a link to the guidelines.”

Most people don’t realise their posts have been deleted, so they cannot adjust their posting style in response.

Thanks in advance (and please feel free to move to Site Stuff if you prefer) Flowers

LangCleg · 27/09/2019 09:17

Lang perhaps you and other well knowns like Datum might need to form a (very polite) private delegation to HQ... I’ve seen mods address you on threads quite politely, so they might be receptive - no pressure

I've had two (it might be three, actually, I forget) "if you don't comply we might have to suspend you" emails since the Limit Your Feminism rules came in so...

... perhaps there are better candidates!

MNHQ - do you still love me?

LangCleg · 27/09/2019 09:22

Seriously: I don't think HQ is going to confront any of this or change the frameworks going forward. I think we all have to make a choice between:

A: submitting to the coercive control and performing endless linguistic contortions to get any actual feminist points across.

B: not submitting to the coercive control, taking your chances as to external reporting and accepting you'll eventually get banned.

I vary between the two based on little more than the mood I woke up in on any particular day.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 27/09/2019 09:50

I'd add an option C which is - don't attempt to argue to toss with the mods via email, it doesn't work. If you receive an email about a deletion that you find confusing, infuriating, or otherwise cause for concern, create a post about it (or add to an ongoing discussion), because these rules and how they're applied are a concern for the whole community. Comparing notes amongst ourselves may yield a better understanding of what's going on.

OP posts:
GirlDownUnder · 27/09/2019 17:30

If I’m gone it’s because I dared 😂

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3674784-Deleted-posts-Suspension-warnings-FWR?msgid=90393151

I was polite and I offered Gin AAK but might not be enough...

Datun · 27/09/2019 22:35

I vacillate wildly in my opinion of the modding.

The moderation of trolls being a particular bugbear. People are very skilful at trolling the fuck out of everyone, whilst remaining within guidelines. Despite trolling not being allowed.

I guess it's the nature of guidelines that they have to be quite explicit. And people's comments don't have to be. Hence the no mans land.

Ironically, HQ have, and do, see off certain trolls. Even those who are litigious. Because when you're right, you're right.

It's a huge issue with transactivism in general.

Fear.

BeMoreMagdalen · 27/09/2019 22:49

Fear

Yup. Without even having to list the machinations that have gone on, even though you can, the single, solitary reason this has got this far is that one word.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 27/09/2019 23:08

And the answer is...

Courage. Which it would be nice if some people would show more of, rather than attempting to punish the women who do.

OP posts:
WrathofSWhlttleKlop · 27/09/2019 23:59

Fear
It is the common factor.

Fear of litigation
Fear of retribution
Fear of doxxing

From the BMJ article thread.
"We sought the views of methodologists and clinical trial statisticians, but few were prepared to speak publicly for fear of reprisal

James Kirkup wrote about how so few MP's not speaking out.

Fear

It is everywhere.

LangCleg · 07/10/2019 12:02

An FWR regular has had a post deleted - she said she was afraid of a prominent XY person who identifies without the Y and has a history of advocating for violent pornography and the dropping of age restrictions.

@MNHQ - is fear now uncivil or unreasonable or not in the spirit?

IT'S A FUCKING FEMINIST FORUM.

Somerville · 07/10/2019 12:58

...is fear now uncivil or unreasonable or not in the spirit?

I’ve definitely mentioned people I’m fearful of on MN before now (usually in political discussions) and not been deleted. So I would add; are there certain people we are not allowed to say we’re afraid of and if so who and why? Confused

The prominent person concerned said such abusive things directly to me on Twitter BTW that I would definitely be afraid of meeting them IRL.
(I can provide evidence of the sexually violent threat made towards me, BTW, as I screenshotted before Twitter deleted it.)

Creepster · 07/10/2019 19:53

I am distressed by the restriction on expressing feelings In this instance a reaction to one person who advocates for the sexual exploitation of minors being compared to a reaction to a person who exploited minors, under the special rules of civility toward transgender identified peoples.

At this point I suspect the mods are simply carrying out the policies designed to protect the business. FWR creates the illusion of Feminist discussion, which is good for business.

Jux · 07/10/2019 21:26

What is MNHQ afraid of? Losing advertisers - more of us than of tw. Litigation? But when you're right, you're right.

Could it really be simply infiltration? Surely they're not that oblivious.

2BthatUnnoticed · 08/10/2019 09:38

Jfc, this is a parenting site! If we cannot prioritise children over XY adults here... then where can we??

(Serious question - is there anywhere else with this kind of discussion format? Neither Spinster or Reddit is as discussion-conducive as this format, I find)

Creepster · 08/10/2019 23:10

I have always preferred this sort of forum format too. Genderberg was a favorite until the Facebook exodus emptied out almost every feminist forum on the internet.

testing987654321 · 09/10/2019 00:09

Just the talk is similar. It was started by people who used the guardian talk board before it closed some years ago.

Far fewer people than here, and the discussions tend to meander rather than stay focused on the OP.

testing987654321 · 09/10/2019 00:11

Oh, and it's funded by donations from the users, when needed, so no advertisers involved.

2BthatUnnoticed · 16/10/2019 21:42

Why did the mostly caring, thoughtful thread about parenting children with gender dysphoria get deleted?

It some really great insights I thought.

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