‘Anti-women’ trans policy may split Stonewall - letter to the Times - more wishful thinking than fact?

[stumbledin]

The times has an article based on a letter thay have published which claims

"Pioneers of the gay rights movement in Britain have discussed forming a breakaway organisation from the Stonewall pressure group because they fear women and children are at risk from its transgender policy."

Full article at www.thetimes.co.uk/article/anti-women-trans-policy-may-split-stonewall-wfv2rp5cx

The letter is signed by:
• Jonathan Best, former director, Queer Up North;
• Julie Bindel, journalist and feminist campaigner;
• Gill Butler, former trustee, Stonewall;
• Beatrix Campbell, writer;
• Maureen Chadwick, TV & film writer and producer;
• Stephanie Davies-Arai, director, Transgender Trend;
• Simon Edge, former editor of Capital Gay and writer for Attitude;
• Simon Fanshawe, founder, Stonewall;
• Eileen Gallagher OBE, TV producer;
• Kath Gotts, composer;
• Claire Graham, intersex advocate;
• Jane Harris, author;
• Kate Harris, former supporter of Stonewall;
• Bev Jackson, founder, Gay Liberation Front;
• Darren Johnson, London Assembly member 2000-16;
• Jane Clare Jones, writer and philosopher;
• Ann McManus, TV and film scriptwriter;
• Ann Sinnott, former Labour councillor;
• Caroline Spry, TV and film producer;
• Kathleen Stock, philosopher;
• Helen Watts, former leader, Girlguiding UK;
• Miranda Yardley, transexual rights activist

Last of letters published at www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/labour-tax-plan-corrodes-rule-of-law-sbh2f09n2

If gay men are finally willing to stand with, and speak up for, lesbians, it'll be so much more impactful than a bunch of mere women.

Some very clear thinkers on that list who have set out the case time and again. I'm hopeful this will embolden others to finally take the plunge and do the same. Very encouraged by this.

Milliefiori Stonewall promote the view that transwomen ARE women, that a transwoman who is attracted to women IS a lesbian (or bi). And that lesbians should consider these transwomen as potential partners. Stonewall considers it transphobic for anyone to exclude members of a certain sex from their dating pool. They don't accept homosexuality as real, they expect people to date according to self-declared 'gender' rather than sex.

milliefiori

This video by Magdalen Berns, the late, lesbian feminist, explains the issue with Stonewall. It's one of her most famous videos.

Absolutely brilliant.

Of course, it shouldn't be necessary. I imagine some of those signatories must be absolutely pissed-off that they put so much time, effort, expertise and resources into already creating an organisation that worked for LGB people, only to have all that stolen, and they have to start again.

But here we are, and if we need a new organisation that offers an alternative to Stonewall's homophobia (and how little I imagined I'd ever type those words in that order) then so be it.

Of course, the best outcome would be that Stonewall's current trustees and staff pull their heads out of their arses, clean house, and get back to their core mission. But we can't afford to wait for them to do that.

They don't accept homosexuality as real, they expect people to date according to self-declared 'gender' rather than sex.

Thereby centering the needs of sexist heterosexuals, over homosexuals. You couldn't make it up.

I imagine some of those signatories must be absolutely pissed-off that they put so much time, effort, expertise and resources into already creating an organisation that worked for LGB people, only to have all that stolen, and they have to start again.

Wow, Annie - hadn't thought of it in those terms. It must be gutting.

Stonewall is no longer fit for purpose, the conflict between telling a child they are born in the wrong body, or just allowing that child to grow up and be gay is enormous. I think the the way pride has gone downhill, exhibiting all sorts of kink and fetish, it’s no longer about accepting gay people. I can’t see them surviving.

I imagine some of those signatories must be absolutely pissed-off that they put so much time, effort, expertise and resources into already creating an organisation that worked for LGB people, only to have all that stolen, and they have to start again.

Also women like Julie Bindel, instrumental in building the women's sector against DV and DA, now watching their orgs infiltrated by penis-centring wokesters.

If an LGB Alliance did get up and running, I'd be happy to pitch in for start-up costs.

Could just start very small, then apply for government grants that Stonewall gets.

If they stay away from the fetishist angle that seems to have taken over Pride and leave the trans stuff to Stonewall (trans people who actually are L, G or B would be welcome of course), then I can see it being a great success. They'd be vulnerable to infiltration of course, so there would be great merit in keeping it small. No huge subcommittees (isn't the trans subcommittee at Stonewall about 80 people or something?).

Can you imagine an alliance of the likes of Julie Bindel, Bev Jackson, Simon Fanshawe and Jonny Best?

They'd be unstoppable.

• Its schools programme is...homophobic @HandsOffMyRights would you mind expanding on this? I've heard a lot of criticism of Stonewall and heard them spout some worrying ideas but I've never heard this. *

In its 'LGBTQ: Match the Meaning' schools material, Stonewall writes that the term 'homosexual' might be considered a more medical term.

Can anybody tell me what is medical about homosexuality please?

What I think would be wonderful would be an organisation that sticks up for the rights of gay people worldwide - things have become so much worse in other countries and it has always seemed to me a shame that Stonewall has ignored that fact and looked for new (rich!) groups to represent in the UK rather than responding to the end of certain battles here by thinking about how to help gay men and women elsewhere.
Or even those who come here as refugees due to their sexuality.

What has happened to activists like Simon Fanshawe is exactly what has happened to women, watching everything they have fought for being dismantled. Those dv shelters weren't built by the pixies they were created by the hard work and determination of women. As were sex segregated facilities such as toilets. First public toilet for women was burnt to the ground.

How about printing up a copy of that letter, highlighting the names of Simon Fanshawe and the other former Stonewall people and then asking for a five-minute chat with your school's headteacher @HandsOffMyRights?

I'm printing it up and putting it in my file of things to take to my MP, who I now routinely lobby about trans issues every couple of months at her local surgery. I'm not going to let her get away. I give her three or four items to read each time, none of them longer than about 500 words and I highlight two or three sentences that sum the issue up. I think it's working.

It's no good if it becomes an anti-trans group and I don't understand why some of the signatories are on there.
Imo the only thing that will help here is a strong LGB group that will stand up to Stonewall and the worst of their policies. Pushing LGB issues rather than being anti anything.
Obviously it will trample on the toes of some of the worst of what is happening.
Speaking out in defense of GNC (lesbian and gay) kids for example and somebody with influence stating that lesbians do not have penises is long overdue.

Trans-twitter is already calling it an anti trans group which will work towards alienating supporters - the LGB people who (for some inexplicable reason) have not yet noticed how homophobic Stonewall now are.

Something has to happen to stop Stonewall being the go-to on these issues, they have abused their monopoly and used it against people they are supposed to be respresenting.
I am grateful to Simon, and all the others for doing this.

I think it would seen as anti-TRA no matter what, because it would not be capitulating to their ideology.

Trans-twitter is already calling it an anti trans group

EVERYTHING is anti-trans according to TRA's, EVERYTHING!
It's meaningless and it will alienate nobody.

Patnot - I did send the headteacher Johnny's previous letter and his (I think it was a petition?) regarding Stonewall, along with the accompanying press article (as it's a lazy/MRA tactic to link concern over gender ideology with homophobia).

He's also had other links and articles (such as Michelle Moore's superb video). Sadly, the school seems to have glugged the Kool Aid as another dubious group are now also in school spouting gender ideology as fact.

If you want an example of how homophobic the translobby can get:

twitter.com/babybeginner/status/1175594910323314689

• If you want an example of how homophobic the translobby can get: twitter.com/babybeginner/status/1175594910323314689*

“If you’re willing to lower your standards and date a black woman, you should also be willing to date someone with a cock”????

I’m not sure which is more offensive there, the racism or the homophobia.

Excellent news. Very happy to donate to startup costs once details announced.

If it is not created for and centering the TRA lobby (and squashing women and lesbians) then of course it will be seen as an 'anti' group.

Huge fight no 1 will be about who can and can't be a lesbian.

It's going to have to be faced: the way the TRA lobby have positioned the movement it is a zero sum game. Either males can identify into womanhood without boundaries, or women's sex based rights can be protected for 50% of the population. Either males can identify into womanhood without boundaries, or women are allowed to choose to be homosexual. Either males can identify into womanhood without boundaries or young girls can follow NSPCC guidelines and safeguarding about who they are and are not willing to get undressed in front of. Either males can identify into womanhood without boundaries, or women can have single sex refuges in which to escape male violence and recover. Either males can identify into womanhood without boundaries, or women can choose single sex hcps.

The point of this splitting of the LGBT+ community is the above. A split group would have to stand for equality of rights, a system in which everyone's needs get met and not a zero sum game in which women and girls are expected (due to biology) to sacrifice themselves for the betterment of others.

Because fuck that.

*and to try and comply with the guidelines: by 'males' I mean people born male.

This is being reported in the Daily Fail and Prick News.

This is very encouraging news.