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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Any Questions

64 replies

YesILikeItToo · 20/09/2019 22:01

The panel seemed to duck the question, ‘Do you believe trans women are women?’ tonight by saying ‘Sure’, ‘Of course’ and (literally) ‘What she said’. Not really acknowledging what issues the question might raise at all.

The questioner tried to have a direct go at David Davies (who had, to be fair, given an answer indicating that he saw that the question needed to be unpacked a bit) by complaining about parliamentary space for meetings, but not many listeners would have appreciated that, I don’t know if the chairman did.

Chairman seemed non plussed, anyway, that the question hadn’t sparked any discussion, and moved things on by mumbling that ‘Perhaps it was one for Any Answers tomorrow’

Went on the radio 4 website to find out who the panellists were but the most interesting thing is to see that the BBC have summarised this as a discussion about the gender recognition act. A lay listener would have had no clue.

OP posts:
BoreOfWhabylon · 21/09/2019 09:36

Yup. The questions are submitted in advance. Pretty sure Ley didn't realise the questioner's agenda.

Also pretty sure the (famously woke) BBC production staff did.

Justhadathought · 21/09/2019 09:42

Sounds like nobody except for David Davies wanted to acknowledge the existence of the elephant in the room; to the extent that some were afraid to even 'say the words' themselves: " What she said"......

This is utterly mental........

Black is white and white is black, and 2 + 2 = 5

Justhadathought · 21/09/2019 09:43

...and it seems, from the above report, that nobody said the simple word 'yes'.

BoreOfWhabylon · 21/09/2019 09:46

The Mail (I know!) has extracts from ex-Today presenter John Humphrys memoir

sometimes finds hard to resist is social engineering. Yet its job is to hold up a mirror to society and reflect back to the audiences what it sees. For good or ill.

It should not try to create society in its own image. It should not try to place its powerful finger on one side of the scale of social justice.

Which is why I raised my eyebrows when the BBC announced it had created the new post of LGBT correspondent — and the man appointed said: ‘I’m looking forward to being the mouthpiece for some marginalised groups . . .’ It was the use of the word ‘mouthpiece’ that jarred. Obviously, the BBC must give a voice to minorities, but it must not act as anyone’s mouthpiece. That’s what lobbyists and public relations people do. To confuse the two is to undermine the job of a journalist.

Imagine a defence correspondent announcing that he sees himself as the mouthpiece for the Armed Forces. Or the health correspondent as the mouthpiece of the NHS.

Or even, heaven forfend, the royal correspondent as the mouthpiece of the Royal Family.

It worries me that the nation has become susceptible to certain pressure groups in a way that we should all find disturbing.

Academics call it ‘policy capture’. It means influencing policy — even dictating it — through fear rather than argument. They destroy those who disagree with them, often through personal attacks on their character or by sheer intimidation.

A relatively recent phenomenon in the BBC is the growth of groups of employees who conflate and, perhaps, confuse their own interests with those of the wider world.

The logic seems to be that if they feel strongly about a given issue, the BBC should not only listen to them but modify its output to reflect their own world view.

A generation ago, they might have been listened to politely and then shown the door. Today, they don’t need to talk to their bosses: they use Twitter.

One small example was an edition of Question Time. It included a question from a member of the audience who was worried that it might not be morally appropriate for five-year-old children to be taught about LGBT issues.

Some members of the BBC’s LGBT group, including a business presenter, took to Twitter to complain that the question should not have been allowed.

The director of BBC News responded by sending all staff an email reminding them that they’re entitled to their personal views, but not allowed to parade them on social media.

PencilsInSpace · 21/09/2019 10:03

Quick transcript:

Diane Jones: Does the panel agree that TWAW, TMAM, and non-binary people are valid and worthy of recognition in the law?

(muted applause)

Shaun Ley: Prompted I suppose in part by Sam Smith's request to his fans this week to use the pronouns they/them not he/him, after he came out as non-binary. Liz Saville Roberts -

LSR: Yes, of course.

(muted applause with a couple of whoops)

SL: Minette Batters -

MB: Yes, absolutely.

(muted applause)

SL: David Davies -

DD: Everyone is valid in the eyes of the law, nobody should face discrimination or verbal abuse of any sort. But I would have concerns about allowing someone who was physically male into areas like prisons or hospital wards where women expect a measure of privacy, and I think that most people would agree with that.

(tumbleweed)

SL: Lisa Nandy -

LN: So basically what Liz said and Minette said and not what David said. (giggles and audience laughter) I also think that there needs to be an awful lot more understanding about this, I think we need a lot more education about it, and I don't just mean among young people. The young people in my constituency seem to understand it better than people my age. So I think we need more education and I think we need a lot more support as well for people because, at the moment, especially with Britain becoming less tolerant, more angry, I think this is quite a frightening place for a lot of people. I think we need more support for people at the moment.

(muted applause)

SL: This may well be one for Any Answers, Anita Anand after the Saturday edition of AQ. Let me go back to the questiopner though, Diane -

DJ: Thank you for the panel's - most of the panel's understanding and support and yes there does need to be more education, more realisation. There is an issue when we have elected MPs voting - bringing groups who are anti-transgender into the houses of parliament, allowing them a platform and then refusing to speak to their constituents in their constituency surgeries when requested. And I think that is an issue that needs to be addressed.

------------

The question was whether NB should be recognised in law - that's a whole can of worms.

BoreOfWhabylon · 21/09/2019 10:07

Thanks Pencils, I missed that bit!

BoreOfWhabylon · 21/09/2019 10:14

According to this twitter thread the questioner is the mother of a trans child

mobile.twitter.com/FeministRoar/status/1175167127789154305

ChattyLion · 21/09/2019 10:30

Thank you for the transcript Pencils

Thing is Sam Smith (not ‘Sam Sam’ as I accidentally called they earlier in my post is NOT only ‘asking’ his fans to call him they/them.
He’s telling the whole world to do it or we are nasty misgenderers if we don’t.

It’s compelled speech.

I probably shouldn’t apologise for writing such long posts because genuinely I am cutting out a lot of what I would really want to say about reality-based thinking Vs magical thinking and the threat this poses to people..

At least (so far as I can tell) there is very little pressure on Non binary people to get invasive surgery, take very dangerous powerful drugs and cross-sex hormones in order to be ‘true’ to their identity, which is a dangerously exacting political obligation being placed on them by pressure groups with nothing to personally lose and everything to gain by that.

I think that’s all still within Talk Guidelines.

I don’t agree with Humphrys on a lot- he is I think sexist and anti-choice, but that extract was spot on, I can imagine there is a lot of pressure if you are working at the BBC never to say what he has said there.

OldCrone · 21/09/2019 12:13

Lines open at 12.30 if anyone wants to phone in to Any Answers.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/B8QptbJ3M2HXfXn2xycKsx/contact-any-answers

zebrasdontwearbras · 21/09/2019 12:17

Wow. That John Humphries extract Shock

I have always been such a supporter of the BBC and having a non-commercial broadcasting corporation, but for the first time ever, hearing John Humphries' word, has shaken that.

'policy capture' - it's happening.

There was a report a while back about rows on a bbc women's Whats App group over whether Transwomen are women. This issue is splitting women, and threatens women's rights, and it's so frightening how it's taken hold. What David TC Davis said should not be controversial, it shouldn't be met with a stony silence.

happydappy2 · 21/09/2019 13:59

So depressing 3 women said yes and David was the only person to point out his concerns of putting Male bodied people in womens prisons.

hipsterfun · 21/09/2019 14:05

I’ve twice called the other DD’s office to thank him for facilitating discussion of trans issues, and am sitting here cheering this DD for basic common sense on AQ.

I don’t want to give my vote to Labour, Lib Dems or the stupid Greens. Or the Tories.

FML.

BoreOfWhabylon · 21/09/2019 14:07

Well, Anita Anand has just invited people to call in to Any Answers to discuss whether the law should be changed to recognise transpeople...

cwg1 · 21/09/2019 14:10

Bump. Phone lines open. Keep calling.

ChattyLion · 21/09/2019 14:35

I have emailed Any Answers- can’t call or listen unfortunately. Can anyone post on here if they do cover this?

BoreOfWhabylon · 21/09/2019 14:36

It's just finished. No mention at all.

ChattyLion · 21/09/2019 14:41

How annoying. Well- next time!

AncientLights · 21/09/2019 15:00

The questioner said MPs are refusing to engage with people on this issue: don't think she can have meant on our side, though that is true enough, but on the trans side. Interesting.

BoreOfWhabylon · 21/09/2019 15:21

She was specifically referring to David TC Davis, who hosted a meeting of a GC group in the House of Commons when the original venue pulled out due to pressure by TRAs.

Ereshkigal · 21/09/2019 15:24

Went to that. It was great.

AnyOldPrion · 21/09/2019 18:59

At least (so far as I can tell) there is very little pressure on Non binary people to get invasive surgery, take very dangerous powerful drugs and cross-sex hormones in order to be ‘true’ to their identity,

My understanding is that it’s quite common for women who claim non-binary status to take testosterone and have mastectomies.

Fraggling · 21/09/2019 19:11

I really don't understand why so many women are red hot keen to lock male sex offenders in with vulnerable women.

It's an absolute scumbag thing to do. What are they thinking? It's just a vile proposition.

zebrasdontwearbras · 21/09/2019 19:56

I really don't understand why so many women are red hot keen to lock male sex offenders in with vulnerable women.

I know, it leaves me incredulous on a daily basis. The lack of consideration towards women in prison, who are often themselves vulnerable and have been victims of sexual & domestic abuse.

This is why they chant "TWAW" at everyone - because if they are women, then they, by definition, go into a women's prison. But of course, factually, they are not women. They are biological males, frequently with intact penises.

BazzleJet · 21/09/2019 20:46

Not just frequently, but usually!

AnyOldPrion · 21/09/2019 20:52

It's just finished. No mention at all.

Is this unusual? Seems bizarre to me that the question was brushed away so quickly and hasn’t even been discussed in the follow up, but I don’t watch very often.