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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Nuanced debate RE: changes to the GRA

34 replies

BickerinBrattle · 20/09/2019 15:59

This post was a response to a poster wondering if we could have nuanced debate about the proposed changes to the GRA that would bring in self i.d. Other posters on that thread requested I make the post into a thread of its own. And so:

Do you know about the bomb threat made to GC feminists by transactivists?

It happened in Hastings, to one of the first meetings women were organising to discuss the proposed changes to the GRA and their ramifications for women.

What women wanted, the entire purpose of the meeting, was that the government agree to consult women regarding the way changes to the GRA could impact women and girls. But the only response women got, from MPs, Stonewall, academics, and activists was: Transwomen are Women: No Debate.

It was around that time, or perhaps a bit earlier, that Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie said that she supported trans rights but that transwomen were not the same as natal women, and that difference had to be taken into account — and she was slammed hard all over social media and in print journalism.

Similarly, Rose McGowan, at a reading for her memoir in which she detailed the rape and abuse Harvey Weinstein had doled out to her, including sending former Mossad agents to threaten her, was harangued by a transactivist later identified as a paedophile for her “c*s privilege” for not doing enough to stop a claimed genocide of transwomen and then, after being deluged with hate messages, McGowan was made to apologise for her sins and promise to centre transwomen in her activism. (She has been notably silent ever since.)

The extreme amount of vitriol Adichie and McGowan received served to silence many women.

I believe it was last year that transactivists gathered outside the offices of the Metro UK and set off smoke bombs after the paper published a story they didn’t like.

Maybe you’ve read about the dead rat recently nailed to the door of Vancouver Rape Relief along with spray-painted graffiti reading “Kill T*rfs” and “Trans Power” and of the near bankruptcy faced by VRR — a rape refuge built and paid for by women — throughout a twelve-year long legal battle VRR fought to maintain a policy of hiring only women to be rape counselors to their female clientele. Ultimately VRR won in the Supreme Court and was awarded court costs the plaintiff has never paid, and that plaintiff has not stopped efforts to force VRR’s closure.

Maybe you’ve read about the transactivists harassing human rights attorney Rosa Freedman — who’d been giving talks about the way human rights law works when there is a clash of rights between groups, about ways to balance rights. She was threatened and chased on her campus to the point she had to hide in the bushes, received late night phoned death threats, and then discovered that a man had urinated all over her office door.

I’m sure you read about Maria MacLachlan knocked to the ground, kicked, beaten, and throttled by three male transactivists, though the police were only able to identify and arrest one. I’m sure you read about the assault on Julie Bindel, and while the male fist didn’t connect with her face, thanks to security personnel, the action is nonetheless an assault under the law.

Let’s see: there was also a meeting in Bristol, where transactivists with masked faces stormed the stairwells and entrances to prevent women meeting, threatening violence.

And an attempted meeting at the Millwall Football Club, where transactivists so threatened the venue that even the redoubtable Millwall bent beneath the threats and canceled the meeting.

There was the time transactivists summoned police to eject Julia Long and three other women from an open-to-the-public meeting at Accenture’s office regarding trans rights — merely because a panelists felt unsafe that Julia was there, because Julia might ask a question. Heaven forfend that a question inspire nuanced debate.

In Canada, Meghan Murphy, scheduled to give a talk in the Vancouver Public Library about women’s issues regarding self i.d. received so many threats, as did the library itself, that the library charged her several thousand dollars in security costs just to avail herself of public space all citizens are entitled to.

Also in Vancouver, at the Dyke March, transactivists surrounded lesbians wearing interlocking female symbols, depictions of a uterus, or the labrys symbol, and physically prevented them marching in the parade.

In San Francisco, long the centre of the gay and lesbian rights movement in the US, the public library hosted an exhibit of pink-and-blue baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire, axes, and t-shirts painted red to simulate blood along with slogans about punching T*erfs, and when women protested, the library claimed it was an art exhibit. But at the SF Dyke March, transactivists wore those t-shirts, carried those axes (until the police stopped them) and roughed up several lesbians, knocking one to the ground.

In Baltimore, the local LGBT organisation fired the only lesbian (and only female) on the governing board when she could not agree that males could be lesbians, and the Baltimore Pride celebration included a party announcement depicting a woman hanged by her neck.

I’m trying to remember the names of all the women who lost jobs and/or contracts for expressing gender critical opinions, but I’ve forgotten names, and many of the incidents. The arts instructor, the tax specialist, the filmmaker, the graduate teaching assistant. Then the names and professions of those who are certain that if they spoke up, they’d lose their jobs. The teacher, the headmaster, the sport coach, the therapist, the social worker, the civil service employee, the writer, the journalist, the tech worker.

Denunciation, firings, harangue, threat, and violence are the responses women have gotten when attempting to have nuanced debate about the fact that girls and women are stakeholders in the proposed legal changes.

The fact that some, and by no means all, transactivists have moved off the No Debate stance is a credit not to them but to the courage, resolve, and persistently rational points women have made while standing in the face of actual, physical threat.

In Hastings, after the bomb threat was made, as women weren’t sure whether they would again be stymied in merely holding a meeting to have the nuanced discussion some posters here decry us not engaging in, the police investigated, identified the man who’d made the threat, searched his home, and found explosives.

I have long been worried that as women make their voices more and more heard in this debate, someone — a woman — is going to get killed.

Three men upon a 60-year old woman, knocking her to the ground — had she landed differently, Maria MacLachlan could have been killed. We all know that a male fist with sufficient momentum can bring enough force to a woman’s skull to fracture it — Julie Bindel could have been severely injured or killed. At the Metro UK, anyone with COPD could have ended up in respiratory distress or failure. The man in Hastings could have taken his explosives to the women’s meeting.

Every day I read death threat to feminists. I read of us described as pestilence, vermin, and Nazis. I read that the proper response to our advocacy on our own behalf is our extermination. These are not always from fringe crazies, either — these are from academics, journalists, celebrities, local politicians, college students. Whether they realise it or not, they are providing cover for and legitimating violence against women as a response to political disagreement.

Nothing women have said or done justifies the response we have gotten, and nothing women have said is in any way equivalent in threat.

Transactivists expected to have won self I.d. already, and they have not. The possibility now exists that they might not win it in the foreseeable future.

Anyone who understands patterns of male abuse of women knows that fact puts us, right now, in a very dangerous time.

I expect escalation of hyperbole and threat from transactivists. And I expect that women, esp. in the UK, having shown so much resolve already, will not now yield. I expect that in some places, women and girls are going to move into civil disobedience, as organisations bow to regulatory capture and strip away rights and protections regardless of the stall in legal change.

Anyone seeking nuanced rational debate about balancing rights has simply arrived on scene too late.

OP posts:
PotatoShape · 20/09/2019 16:12

As long as women, like me, who rightly know what a woman is are deleted, silenced, and attacked for their factual knowledge.....we will never move past this.
@MNHQ need to stop treating us like idiots and allow us to talk about FACTUAL THINGS without fear of deletion/the ban hammer.

LangCleg · 20/09/2019 16:14

This was, and is, a stupendous post.

Nuance? Anyone?

Ereshkigal · 20/09/2019 16:17

It's a brilliant post.

The last paragraph says everything.

yulet · 20/09/2019 16:19

👏

sleepyhead · 20/09/2019 16:25

There's no nuance in #nodebate or #rightsideofhistory.

Compromise needs willingness to consider movement from both sides.

A conversation means listening to other voices.

I'd love to see a world where GNC people could be out and proud and break down the barriers of gender conforming stereotypes that are so damaging and have caused pain to both women and men.

I'd love to see a world where a feminine man, wearning whatever clothes he feels most comfortable in, could walk into a man's toilet and feel safe and included.

I'd like to see stiff penalties in law for people who physically attack, belittle, and discriminate against masculine women, feminine men and androgynous people.

I'd love society to change to one that disapproves of trying to put boys and girls into boxes based on what's between their legs and pays as much mind to a boy who like pink and sparkles as much as one in a football top.

But I can't tell lies and say that I believe something magic happens and a human can change their sex.

TheAlternativeTentacle · 20/09/2019 16:32

Excellent re-post Bicker.

TalkingintheDark · 20/09/2019 16:38

Brilliant, Bickerin. So glad you’ve given this post a thread of its own, it really merits it.

It’s a chilling summary, and this is really worth emphasising:

Transactivists expected to have won self I.d. already, and they have not. The possibility now exists that they might not win it in the foreseeable future.

Anyone who understands patterns of male abuse of women knows that fact puts us, right now, in a very dangerous time.

I don’t think we can ever overstate the fact that this whole movement is actually a form of abuse of women and girls by members of the dominant - male - sex, and needs to be viewed and responded to as such.

There is no “nuanced debate” with abusive parties. There is only capitulation or separation. Escape.

I just wish I knew where we could escape to. And how we can get the powers that be to recognise this as abuse and respond accordingly. Difficult when they’ve all been so effectively groomed and captured.

BickerinBrattle · 20/09/2019 17:14

Yes, this is why I think it’s going to come to civil disobedience.

Women are going to do as Sweary G did, en masse — I.d. as men and disrupt male spaces. They’re going to have to blockade and sit-in at sport events. They’re going to have to target a specific store permitting men in women’s changing rooms and organise a boycott and picketing if that one store, as demonstration of the power of the female purse.

They’re going to have to get rude and print up flyers of Karen White and Jessica Yaniv or just Danielle Muscato and post them in women’s gyms, with lines saying something like that : Parliament says this woman can get naked with you and if you object you’re committing a hate crime.

The sheer amount of money being leveraged against women in this fight puts us in the weak position. Then here’s the coercion.

Civil disobedience, historically, is the only tactic, save violence, that’s been effective in the past where the weak have won concession from the strong, and violence isn’t a tactic I can or will advocate.

But this is exactly why TRAs work so hard to prevent women meeting. Civil disobedience requires organisation, and organisation requires meetings and recruitment.

This is the exact same reason why, under Apartheid in SouthAfrica, it was illegal for Blacks to gather in groups larger than three people.

It’s the exact same reason why, in previous centuries, women gathering with other women behind closed doors were burned as witches.

It’s why a space like MN is so vital and so attacked by TRAs.

OP posts:
dolorsit · 20/09/2019 17:25

Thank you for reposting.

I've taken a copy, I would suggest that others do the same.

AnyOldPrion · 20/09/2019 17:41

this is why I think it’s going to come to civil disobedience

I think this will become necessary. I hope the law is never changed to allow men to have women’s rights without gatekeeping, but if it does, I think this is the only thing that will work.

happydappy2 · 20/09/2019 17:59

There are various court cases that will be pivotal in how this battle proceeds. I think the sports situation is going to help bring this to a head, though I’m disgusted we have male born athletes competing on womens teams. Also the public are getting tired of pride being shoved in our faces permanently.

BarbaraStrozzi · 20/09/2019 18:18

Round of applause for BickeringBrattle.

This post needs to be put in every thread, every time someone tries the "Trump false equivalence" line of argument.

MrsWednesdayteatime · 20/09/2019 18:30

(part-time lurker) De-lurking to say that is am amazing piece of writing op. 👏👏👏

BickerinBrattle · 20/09/2019 18:56

Thanks for the applause.

I only know about all of this because ALL of it was posted either here on MN FWR or on the Reddit Gender Critical forum, which until the arrival of Spinster, have been the ONLY places in the entire galaxy of the Internet where women have been able to make their own posts, share information, and talk (semi) freely about the impact of genderism on us.

Think about that — how enormous the Internet is, how much is permissible on it, including recipes for mass toxins, paedophilia groups meeting, every form of depraved and violent pornography, instructions for building nuclear devices, in many locales revenge porn, and all over the place depictions and threats of rape —

But not the speech of gender critical women.

OP posts:
CigarsofthePharoahs · 20/09/2019 19:34

And that dreadful "Punch a terf" song.
Excellent op.

BarbaraStrozzi · 20/09/2019 19:34

Think about that — how enormous the Internet is, how much is permissible on it, including recipes for mass toxins, paedophilia groups meeting, every form of depraved and violent pornography, instructions for building nuclear devices, in many locales revenge porn, and all over the place depictions and threats of rape —

But not the speech of gender critical women.

Yup.

MsMcWibble · 20/09/2019 19:47

BickeringBrattle Brilliant posts, which I have screenshot.
As for civil disobedience, some women are more than ready for this.

Backintheclosit123 · 20/09/2019 20:36

Wow. Seeing it all laid out in opening post is sobering, to say the least.
Civil disobedience? Hell yeah.

NonnyMouse1337 · 21/09/2019 07:14

Epic post! Civil disobedience is totally the way to go.

SophoclesTheFox · 21/09/2019 07:51

Wonderfully put, bickerin

If you want to find out who rules over you, find out who you’re not allowed to criticise. The first step is reframing this in people’s minds as not actually being the struggle of an oppressed minority trying to gain human rights. Rather, it should be viewed as another front opening up in the war on women, and treated as such.

MsMcWibble · 21/09/2019 09:30

Bumping for Saturday morning.

MacaroonMama · 21/09/2019 13:19

Wow, fantastic post. Scary seeing it collated in black and white.

I have leafletted and chatted to the public, written to and met my MP, and been to a few of the We Need To Talk.../A Woman's Place... events - so what would civil disobedience look like? (Not trying to get anyone in trouble! Just wondering. Do phrase as 'hypothetically if easier.) I suppose I am just wondering about what to do next.

BadgertheBodger · 21/09/2019 13:27

Fantastic post. Really unsettling to see it all put together.

Redshoeblueshoe · 21/09/2019 13:38

Excellent post

TheBullshitGoesOn · 21/09/2019 13:43

Fantastic post Bickerin.