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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour party just came to my door...

62 replies

Terfnserf · 19/09/2019 19:06

My labour party candidate just came to my door. I asked her to describe a woman and apparently it all depends 'how you are socialised' sputtered something about intersex and violence against trans She appeared not to know about TW on all women short lists, or TW being women's officers. I suggested she watches a few Magdalene Berns videos on YouTube. Unfortunately I am not very eloquent so not sure how I came across.

OP posts:
CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 19/09/2019 20:40

I am not going to vote

PLEASE deface your ballot with the reason rather than just not show up.

HumberElla · 19/09/2019 20:46

Describe a woman". The latter not being said in good faith as the OP is already well aware of the Labour party's position

So asking for the party’s definition of a woman is acting in bad faith? Asking to confirm their position is wrong? Really?

Goosefoot · 19/09/2019 20:49

That suggests you want to give the response the voter wants to hear, rather than your (or your party's) actual opinion. I don't want to be lied to, I want a party to represent me who has the courage to tell the truth.

It can, but it isn't always I don't think. There is a difference between saying what people want to hear, and trying to present something that's not as simple, maybe even not as simple as you might like. I did some canvassing as a volunteer last election, and like another poster said, if you know where someone is coming from you can often answer their question in a better way, and more honestly, than if you aren't sure. It's like if you don't really know where they are coming from there are too many things you could say.

testing987654321 · 19/09/2019 20:49

Describe a woman". The latter not being said in good faith as the OP is already well aware of the Labour party's position.

I have no fucks to give for political parties who have signed up to such ridiculous policies that asking "what is a woman" can be classed as asking "not in good faith".

Really think about that for a while. The Labour Party, which wants to be in power is thrown completely off balance by being asked to explain what a woman is.

They can't identify 50% of the population correctly!!!

Popchyk · 19/09/2019 20:54

"Describe a woman" is not in good faith, leghair?

Why?

Can't help but feel that Labour is in the position that it is in (fucking dire) precisely because it cowardly frames questions that it doesn't want to answer as "asked in bad faith" and can therefore be dismissed.

How is that tactic playing with voters do you think?

Just tell the truth.

Aberhonddu · 19/09/2019 20:57

How is it possible to take a person seriously when they cannot give the definition of a woman.
I really don't give a fuck if a question is not in good faith. The times of good faith fucked off and left the building many years ago.
I was told by a man recently canvassing for the Lib Dem's that his niece was about to become his nephew.
I expressed disbelief that a grown man thought that human beings could change sex, I was very polite and I told him about the 400% increase in ROGD amongst young women.
I mentioned Aimee Challenor. Then Sarah Brown's Twitter account. He had no knowledge of any of those people.
I suggested that he might like to go and have a look at what is being said and what is being widely ascribed to the party he wanted me to vote for.
I'll definitely spoil my ballot with a well chosen phrase, it might not be in good faith though.

HumberElla · 19/09/2019 20:59

I'm more than happy to give the party's policy on a particular subject

Perhaps you are. If you were asked a direct question about self ID then perhaps you’d be very happy to tell women that their sex class is irrelevant.

My experience is that your party colleagues will hide self ID policy behind inclusive and progress gender platitudes for as long as they can. And you are relying on women not realising that sex as a protected characteristic is being dismantled and sold off.

BarbaraStrozzi · 19/09/2019 21:20

leghair it was a provocative way of raising the issue, but frankly, if you can't handle provocative questions, you shouldn't be in politics at any level.

I'm a former Labour party member, and trust me, that is polite in comparison to some of the things I want to ask canvassers (but probably won't because frankly I know it's a lost cause... though I did have an interesting conversation with my actual MP recently).

But how about the practical consequences - because ultimately that's what matters politically.

Should male-bodied rapist Karen White be in a woman's prison?

Should teenage girls be told they have to shower after PE with fellow pupils who have penises, if those fellow pupils identify as a girls?

Should male-bodied individuals be able to bring human rights cases if they are excluded from contact sports with women, contact sports in which (in addition to the fundamental unfairness) they risk causing serious, even fatal injury?

Should rapes committed by people with penises (the legal definition of rape in the UK) be recorded as female crimes if the perpetrator identifies as a woman?

Should it be legal for a domestic violence shelter to say "we only cater for women of the sort born with vaginas"?

Should the simple act of using the wrong pronouns lead to criminal prosecutions under the Malicious Communications Act, or is this stretching the Act way beyond its original purpose?

What would your answer be to these questions on the doorstep? Or do you consider them too provocative to be worthy of an answer?

BlackForestCake · 19/09/2019 21:28

Ultimately, that doorstep conversation isn't likely to lead to either of you changing your position.

That's not the purpose of it though is it? The purpose is that canvassers go back to the party and says "Well, quite a few people are not voting for us because we are pretending we can't tell men from women" and they can draw their conclusions from that.

Who are you going to vote for though? That's the dilemma for GC people.

It is, but it isn't one you have to share with canvassers. Even if you decide to grit your teeth and vote for them, they don't need to know that.

billydilly · 19/09/2019 21:37

Interesting. I emailed my (gay male) Labour MP asking for his views on self-id. I got a long and effusive message about his enthusiasm for reform and the encouraging conversations he'd had in local primary and secondary schools with transitioning youngsters ( local being Brighton). I think he may have thought I was a trans person myself, judging by his tone.

I replied by saying that I disagreed with his position, was concerned for the safety and dignity of women and girls and for my pals within the lesbian community in Brighton. He then said that, on reflection, he was concerned about these issues too and it made him uncomfortable to constantly reaffirm his pronouns.

In other words, please vote for me, I'll say whatever the fuck you want me to say.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 19/09/2019 22:01

In other words, please vote for me, I'll say whatever the fuck you want me to say.

In other words he's a typical politician .

ChangeOfTides · 19/09/2019 22:10

The thing is ‘define a woman’ is an attempt to get the canvasser to give their personal view, which isn’t really relevant unless they’re the actual candidate. If they hadn’t been befuddled by your question they could have stated the party’s current policy positions but also said the party aims to be a democracy and there are people within the party arguing strongly in the opposite direction. Trying to please everyone isn’t what canvassers do and TBH she may even have been a bit afraid of getting the answer ‘wrong’ on an issue where there’s a potential for violent responses.

But go ahead and tell yourself that trying to intimidate women who may be taking their first steps into political involvement makes you the good guy.

testing987654321 · 19/09/2019 22:15

TBH she may even have been a bit afraid of getting the answer ‘wrong’ on an issue where there’s a potential for violent responses.

Where's the potential for a violent response to the definition of a woman? What are you talking about?

Terfnserf · 19/09/2019 22:15

To reiterate, the person that came to my door was the actual parliamentary candidate, sadly I had not thought to keep leaflets handy, I mentioned that feminist meetings had actual bomb threats which she had vaguely heard of but kept banging on about her closeness to the trans community so I am not thinking I made any impression though I hope she does discover Magdalens videos

OP posts:
HumberElla · 19/09/2019 22:17

a bit afraid of getting the answer ‘wrong’ on an issue where there’s a potential for violent responses

There is only ever violence against women who express concern about self ID. Never the other way around.

testing987654321 · 19/09/2019 22:17

You could email some links and ask for her opinion on them.

Terfnserf · 19/09/2019 22:19

It did appear that she totally bought into transition and mentioned men becoming women more than once, she was bloody desperate to get away!

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ChickenyChick · 19/09/2019 22:22

Violent response? About politics

From women to men?

Is that generally a big problem in our society? Hmm

LloydBraun · 19/09/2019 22:24

Aside from failing to berate her for supporting a revolting little anti-Semite, I applaud your action.
I doubt I will see any labour candidates here - I think the smell of cow shit in rural areas poisons them, thankfully - but I am keeping a bucket of cold water to hand. Just in case.

Terfnserf · 19/09/2019 22:29

I think i will email her some links, i was a little concerned she knew my name but i am going to channel my inner Magdalen and be brave

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ChangeOfTides · 19/09/2019 22:34

It wasn’t a man at the door canvassing. It was a woman. She doesn’t know who else is in the house, what your reaction might be, whether you might be a trans woman who passes. So yes, she may have been afraid of violent responses, whatever her opinions.

Terfnserf · 19/09/2019 22:41

Changeof
So there is a chance of a violent response from a transwomen if she confirms that a women is an adult human female?

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testing987654321 · 19/09/2019 22:43

whether you might be a trans woman who passes

Priceless. I can just imagine all those "passing" transwomen wanting to ask actual women what a woman is.

Thanks for the amusement.

HumberElla · 19/09/2019 22:58

Yes that’s probably best. Don’t answer questions from women, about subjects pertaining to women, just in case they are transwomen.

Best be on the safe side eh?

Aberhonddu · 19/09/2019 23:20

@ChangeOfTides
A transwo man who passes bit of an oxymoron there

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