Genuine confusion- feel torn about trans issues. Childhood now v. childhood 20 years ago

[Foxy333]

I have read loads on MN and twitter, articles etc about trans people and watched a few documentaries. What I am genuinely confused about is this... is the 'feeling' a child has growing up of being the wrong sex, is it at all related the much more gendered and polarised culture around them? I am a feminist and have heard all about the Terf accusations and how many feel that feminists are transphobic.

But are gender norms/ stereotypes (that all girls really are into clothes and make-up, and boys aren't at all, but love sport/cars etc) fuelling the rise in transgender. I feel so conflicted as I am pro LGBT+ rights and very liberal in my politics in every thing usually. But on this one issue, I think that society is almost causing the issue.

For example when I was a teenager, many boys I knew were very much into music dancing, outrageous clothes, hair dye, make up , alternative fashion. And likewise there were some girls in my school who were extreme nerd or geek types, wore any old thing, short hair, very academic, into science, bird watching, pets, outdoor life. We had a real diverse mix at my school. Is this variety still going on in schools today?

Can't you be and do whatever you like about hobbies or looks, without taking hormones and even having surgery on genitals to change a healthy body capable of a satisfying sex life, into a body that is not so healthy and functioning? I am genuinely confused. I think there must be some very rare people who wish to live their life as the opposite sex for the rest of their life....but can this be that common?

I want to support those who really are in this position, but in our society's speed to be understanding and let everyone be who they want to be, are we also almost misleading many teens/ kids about how diverse men and women can be ??

Girls as a group are more academically high achieving than they were a generation ago.

And they all do Physics and Chemistry to 16 now. It is compulsory. At my large comp in the eighties no girls did physics at all.

Heels are rarely worn now too, whereas stilettos were everywhere in the eighties.

I agree completely. Things have changed to the point that I hardly ever see a girl with short hair any more - unless she’s a lesbian or a transman. I and all my mates had short hair, wore jeans and t shirts, flat shoes, etc. And growing up, as a teen and in my 20s, ALL my male friends wore flamboyant clothes, make up, crimped hair, etc. I do think society is causing much of the confusion with its insistence on strict rules of gender, punished horribly (through social pressure and ostracism) if people don’t adhere. I find it genuinely bewildering.

Saying that, I do think people with gender disphoria have genuine needs that are different from other people and should be treated with the same compassion and respect as the rest of us, I just don’t believe the massive hike in numbers of trans people (mostly girls) is driven by the same needs as the few transsexual people I’ve met. I think it’s driven by the weird gendered culture that seems to permeate everything today, I’m a way it didn’t used to. I don’t understand where it’s come from. Is it about consumerism? An easy way to sell us things we don’t need? Is it the focus on the individual and identity? I don’t know. I wish it would fade out soon though. I think it’s a fashion and will pass eventually but it will have done a lot of damage.

Girls don't wear heels half as much, but the most popular look is very heavily made up, fake lashes at all times, long hair, a very narrow definition of what is feminine and attractive. I don't feel that's progress, and let's not even start on the pornification of mainstream culture. Girls are under huge pressure to conform.

I think childhood play and toys is far more gendered than ever. When I was a kid then kid colours were primary colours and now it is far more segregated into blue and pink. I think there was a lot more tolerance of gender non conforming women, and nobody would question whether they were male or female.

Look at girl monopoly which has been recently announced. The character has her uncle to look out for her, girls get more money to even the playing field and she has nice sparkly stilettos. Crap like that is fuelling genderism.

One thing worth thinking about OP is the relationship between the LGB and the T. It's quite possible to support LGB issues wholeheartedly, and be accepting of people adopting whatever conceptualisation of their own relationship to their own body gets them through the day most comfortably on the T issue, while not agreeing with the cultish ideology that has grown up around some aspects of T. (In particular, accepting that those among transpeople who argue that "gay" should be redefined to mean "same gender attracted" rather than "same sex attracted" are actually fighting for the precise opposite to the L and G bits!)

I agree with you about stronger sex stereotyping making this more of an issue. I've got a friend who's an anthropologist. She's pointed out to me that incidences of what we (from our Western perspective) might call trans categories within cultures are very variable, both across cultures and across different time periods. But they tend to pop up (Bacha posh, sworn virgins, fa'afine, hijra, two spirit people, third sexes etc. etc.) in societies which either have very rigid sex stereotypes which are very strongly imposed, or societies with huge amounts of antagonism towards gay people, or both.

The move from 80s to now is an interesting one. In a sense there was more sexism in the 80s (I was late teen/young adult then) - but it was overt, in your face, you knew you had to fight it. Now it's more subtle. The world is still awash with it (long hair, TOWIE style makeup, various forms of backlash) but it's under the radar. So a young girl who is non-gender-conforming experiences the same pressures, but so under-the-radar that rather than recognise it for what it is (as you had to back in my day when some sexist numpty told you to your face that you couldn't do woodwork and play cricket in school for no other reason than because you were a girl), a girl nowadays may just have a vague feeling of unease that she doesn't fit, and therefore decide it's her that needs fixing (by becoming a boy), rather than the world around her.

Ditto non-binary. I distinctly remember as a young woman having days when I felt like performing femininity (heels, short skirt, makeup) and days when I didn't (jeans, t-shirt, jumpers for goalposts in the park). But back then for me, they were just days when I felt like doing one thing, and days when I felt like doing something different. I remained me throughout, just doing different stuff. Nowadays, perhaps if I was on tumblr, it wouldn't be "me" throughout - I'd be thinking of myself as a whole different person on the days I performed femininity as opposed to the days I fancied a kick around in the park. So I'd come to the conclusion I was non-binary. (Of course, there would be no actual material reality underlying this conclusion, and it would in a sense be just another piece of self-indulgent toss like the "ladette" of the nineties or the "cool girl" of the noughties).

Hey OP you sound like me 3 years ago. Confused and trying to be empathetic and helpful.

Conversations with trans women online it became clear that their lives which identified them to transition were very similar to people like my own brothers - the boys who hated sports and absolutely loathed machismo, were into music, art, games and caring for others. Revise for the girls, who had childhoods like mine - similar to those you described in your OP.

Nowadays a certain subset of these kids who don’t want to conform Are taught (either formally but more often via the internet) that kids like them are probably trans or at least non-binary. And that the right thing to do is to tell everyone that they have to pretend they are the opposite sex.

This ends up fucking up their minds because of course they are constantly “misgendered” and are told that means everyone around them is a cis bigot if they see them as their birth sex. They get paranoid. They shut themselves in. Become increasingly Self-absorbed and live in the internet.

In my view, trans gender orthodoxy is causing a mental health crisis among some of the most unique, sweet, and lovable kids and young people.

It happened to my husband. He transitioned for 2-3 years and it drove him into a much more serious depression, even triggered anger issues which is not like him at all. Thankfully he realized the BS for what it was before it was too late.

I think its online grooming.

Transitioning and being non binary is seen as an edgy lifestyle. Something that parent won't understand.

Some of the YouTube channels are like advertisements.

oh, yes, no one over 45 could possibly understand what transgender is all about

Endofthedays "Heels are rarely worn now too, whereas stilettos were everywhere in the eighties."

No no no!

The eighties - that's 10 years worth of fashion and it certainly wasn't dominated by stilettos:

Eighties Fashion:
www.whowhatwear.co.uk/eighties-fashion

eBay vintage women's shoes 1980's:
www.ebay.co.uk/b/1980s-Vintage-Shoes-for-Women/74976/bn_9357053

There is pretty much the same range in 2019, although skyscraper heels (> 4") I recall being post-80s and they are still very much in evidence:

The 2019 Shoe Trends You Need to Know About
www.marieclaire.com/fashion/a25736244/top-shoes-trends-2019/

6 Shoe Trends That Are Taking Over in 2019
www.whowhatwear.co.uk/best-shoe-trends-2019

10 TOP TRENDING SHOES FOR WOMEN IN 2019
www.thetrendspotter.net/trending-shoes-for-women/

"they all do Physics and Chemistry to 16 now. It is compulsory"

Agreed - and the same for Biology.

Until and unless gender-theology warps the biological science content of the National Curriculum it should provide an antidote to earlier brainwashing. I guess that is the next monstrosity to watch out for - science teachers being pilloried for teaching actual science rather than rainbow fairy tales.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/381754/SECONDARY_national_curriculum.pdf

Key Stage 3: Subject content – Biology

Pupils should be taught about:

Structure and function of living organisms

Cells and organisation

 cells as the fundamental unit of living organisms, including how to observe, interpret and record cell structure using a light microscope
the functions of the cell wall, cell membrane, cytoplasm, nucleus, vacuole, mitochondria and chloroplasts
 the similarities and differences between plant and animal cells
 the role of diffusion in the movement of materials in and between cells
 the structural adaptations of some unicellular organisms
 the hierarchical organisation of multicellular organisms: from cells to tissues to organs to systems to organisms.

The skeletal and muscular systems

 the structure and functions of the human skeleton, to include support, protection, movement and making blood cells
 biomechanics – the interaction between skeleton and muscles, including the measurement of force exerted by different muscles
 the function of muscles and examples of antagonistic muscles.

Nutrition and digestion

 content of a healthy human diet: carbohydrates, lipids (fats and oils), proteins, vitamins, minerals, dietary fibre and water, and why each is needed
 calculations of energy requirements in a healthy daily diet
 the consequences of imbalances in the diet, including obesity, starvation and deficiency diseases
 the tissues and organs of the human digestive system, including adaptations to function and how the digestive system digests food (enzymes simply as biological catalysts)
 the importance of bacteria in the human digestive system
 plants making carbohydrates in their leaves by photosynthesis and gaining mineral nutrients and water from the soil via their roots.

Gas exchange systems

 the structure and functions of the gas exchange system in humans, including adaptations to function
 the mechanism of breathing to move air in and out of the lungs, using a pressure model to explain the movement of gases, including simple measurements of lung volume
 the impact of exercise, asthma and smoking on the human gas exchange system
 the role of leaf stomata in gas exchange in plants.

Reproduction

 reproduction in humans (as an example of a mammal), including the structure and function of the male and female reproductive systems, menstrual cycle (without details of hormones), gametes, fertilisation, gestation and birth, to include the effect of maternal lifestyle on the foetus through the placenta
 reproduction in plants, including flower structure, wind and insect pollination, fertilisation, seed and fruit formation and dispersal, including quantitative investigation of some dispersal mechanisms.

Health

 the effects of recreational drugs (including substance misuse) on behaviour, health and life processes.

Material cycles and energy

Photosynthesis

 the reactants in, and products of, photosynthesis, and a word summary for photosynthesis
 the dependence of almost all life on Earth on the ability of photosynthetic organisms, such as plants and algae, to use sunlight in photosynthesis to build organic molecules that are an essential energy store and to maintain levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere
 the adaptations of leaves for photosynthesis.

Cellular respiration

 aerobic and anaerobic respiration in living organisms, including the breakdown of organic molecules to enable all the other chemical processes necessary for life
 a word summary for aerobic respiration
 the process of anaerobic respiration in humans and micro-organisms, including
fermentation, and a word summary for anaerobic respiration
 the differences between aerobic and anaerobic respiration in terms of the reactants, the products formed and the implications for the organism.

Interactions and interdependencies

Relationships in an ecosystem

 the interdependence of organisms in an ecosystem, including food webs and insect pollinated crops
 the importance of plant reproduction through insect pollination in human food security
 how organisms affect, and are affected by, their environment, including the accumulation of toxic materials.

Genetics and evolution

Inheritance, chromosomes, DNA and genes

 heredity as the process by which genetic information is transmitted from one generation to the next
 a simple model of chromosomes, genes and DNA in heredity, including the part played by Watson, Crick, Wilkins and Franklin in the development of the DNA model
 differences between species
 the variation between individuals within a species being continuous or discontinuous, to include measurement and graphical representation of variation
 the variation between species and between individuals of the same species means some organisms compete more successfully, which can drive natural selection
 changes in the environment may leave individuals within a species, and some entire species, less well adapted to compete successfully and reproduce, which in turn may lead to extinction
 the importance of maintaining biodiversity and the use of gene banks to preserve hereditary material.

Key Stage 4 Biology

Extracts:

Coordination and control

 principles of nervous coordination and control in humans
 the relationship between the structure and function of the human nervous system
 the relationship between structure and function in a reflex arc
 principles of hormonal coordination and control in humans
 hormones in human reproduction, hormonal and non-hormonal methods of contraception
 homeostasis.

Evolution, inheritance and variation

 the genome as the entire genetic material of an organism
 how the genome, and its interaction with the environment, influence the development of the phenotype of an organism
 the potential impact of genomics on medicine
 most phenotypic features being the result of multiple, rather than single, genes
 single gene inheritance and single gene crosses with dominant and recessive phenotypes
 sex determination in humans
 genetic variation in populations of a species
 the process of natural selection leading to evolution
 the evidence for evolution
 developments in biology affecting classification
 the importance of selective breeding of plants and animals in agriculture
 the uses of modern biotechnology including gene technology; some of the practical and ethical considerations of modern biotechnology.

Great post OP.

But are gender norms/ stereotypes (that all girls really are into clothes and make-up, and boys aren't at all, but love sport/cars etc) fuelling the rise in transgender.

In my opinion, yes. Also in terms of the girls I think both the ubiquity of porn and how vicious a lot of it is towards woman and girls is a contributing factor in terms of girls thinking that if there's any way to not grow up to be a woman they'll take it.

Yes. 100%.
If we could make progress in the idea that your biological sex does not need to dictate your interests, sense of style or career we would eliminate a lot of children’s discomfort with their “gender”.
But
The other bit is about porn and sexuality. Reading about how young women are expected to experience sex these days I don’t bloody blame them for not wanting to be young women

I think its online grooming.

This.

The single, overwhelmingly most significant shift from my childhood is the internet. It, or more specifically the social media aspects of it, have hugely changed the way we interact with the world. Some aspects of this are undoubtedly good. Who wouldn't want to be able to see their grandchildren in Australia growing up? Who doesn't like being able to chat with people who share their particular interests?

But the downsides are immense. Online grooming is a huge issue that no politician, no journalist is really taking seriously. They may pick at one small thread, Islamic extremism maybe, or pro-ana sites perhaps, but there is little to no discussion of online grooming as a whole and how the hell we tackle it.

I'm honestly starting to think the whole damn internet was a bad idea.

I distinctly remember as a young woman having days when I felt like performing femininity (heels, short skirt, makeup) and days when I didn't (jeans, t-shirt, jumpers for goalposts in the park). But back then for me, they were just days when I felt like doing one thing, and days when I felt like doing something different. I remained me throughout, just doing different stuff. Nowadays, perhaps if I was on tumblr, it wouldn't be "me" throughout - I'd be thinking of myself as a whole different person on the days I performed femininity as opposed to the days I fancied a kick around in the park. So I'd come to the conclusion I was non-binary.

There was a video making the rounds a few years ago of the same young woman in typical Instagram style makeup with her hair down and "done", and with her hair tucked up under a baseball cap and minimal makeup. According to her, and many others, she was a girl when she had blusher, fake lashes, and her hair down, and a boy when she had her hair tucked under a cap. So apparently one changes "gender" along with one's hairstyle, without even a cut required.

They're awfully confused, that generation, and I wish those of us who're older and had realized and intervened sooner.

When I was a child I was desperate to be a boy (I am female). It was painful to be a girl. My friends were boys and I liked ‘boy stuff’. I thought girls were “stupid” and actively disliked most girls. I was boisterous and excitable, I found girls too gentle and was worried I’d hurt them which I found irritating and a fault on their behalf. I felt like some sort of monster, and I was aware that my family didn’t like such behaviour coming from a girl. As a toddler/ young child I had always been rough and wasn’t afraid of starting a physical fight. I would get upset when my friends (boys) would refer to me as a girl. I used to get upset that I couldn’t use the boys toilets. I used to stuff tissue in my pants and try to pee like a boy. I despised myself and was embarrassed of all this once I got old enough to understand that I wasn’t a boy- and couldn’t ever be.

Once I reached 7 years old I stopped pretending to be a boy but still secretly wished I was until I was around 13. I’m not sure what happened to me or why I felt like that but I’m not trans. I developed an eating disorder in my early teens and hated my body/ any fat. The obsession to be thin took over the obsession of being a boy. I’m now happy with my female body and have been since my E.d improved.

I can’t say why there seems to be more cases of trans children/ people. All I can say is that I’m so glad that I was a child just before the trans campaign escalated. At 5 years old, if someone had told me I could be a boy/ live like a boy, with a male name, then I would have bitten their arm off and probably have a lot of issues by now.

@Noti23 research says that going through puberty can be the catalyst to accepting that we belong to the sex class we do. Your story (thank you for it) sits alongside many others, girls who identified with and longed to be boys throughout childhood.

I do think that there was a period in the second half of the C20th in which diversity was encouraged, and gender stereotypes deliberately challenged by youth. So we had Ziggy Stardust and girls with short hair and practical clothing for play for both boys and girls.

My daughter had short hair aged 4-6 and I couldn't find a single character in a book or movie with a similar style. Not a bob, but what is called either a 'boy' cut or a pixie cut.

And yet similar hairstyles were common amongst girls and women of all ages in my childhood.

There is definitely policing now, and children being told that if they tick more boxes in the boy or girl stereotype list that is their gender, which must be terribly confusing.

Yes.
I too believe that the gender ideology cum orthodoxy has created a more repressive society. I think too we are doing terrible harm and destroying many lives of both people mis-identified as trans and actual trans people.

I’ve watched and read countless stories by transpeople on how and why they realized they were trans. I made allowances for not having the language to express themselves. But what emerged was a very worrying pattern of stating a gender stereotype/norm/expectation and then explaining how they did not fit into it. They would repeat this for a moderate list of “childhood events” followed by the eventual eureka moment. Many even appeared to be secondhand, as in “my parents said I always....” not even their own memories.

Not a single person I have read has explained trans-ness in any terms other than those framed by gender stereotypes/norms/expectations in which deviation in thought or deed was a “sign” of trans-ness. I recognize that this could be a limit of understanding and language so I am keeping an open mind about whether transpeople exist...leaning towards the benefit of doubt that they do.

Then I was like, but so what if it cannot yet be explained due to lack of language or understanding what it (trans) is? If self-identified trans people are happier after surgical & hormone transition, then we (society) must be doing something right. But, then the studies came out showing that transition makes trans people less happy- their risk of suicide goes up over 19x! Obviously this means the majority of people going through transition, should not be.

So, barring any new studies or evidence, I am very concerned. While I think a few transpeople may very well exist, it appears to me that 1) we have no idea how to identify whether we are trans or not as it is all currently based on degrees of gender nonconforming thought or behaviour, and 2) we are actively harming trans people with gender conforming surgery, not helping them so we need to look at perhaps changing society instead of the body....

Thanks for sharing your experience notI23 This needs to be heard,

The Prodigal they are indeed a confused generation but I don't think we could ever have anticipated that such as basic concept as male/female could be ignored and corrupted like this. It beggars belief! Having said that, I have re-read 1984 recently and the parallels are shocking.

OP I agree with you. The reason for your discomfort is that the T concept is entirely different to the LGB. The latter is about who you are sexually attracted to but the former is about saying you are a man/woman despite your biology being otherwise. Totally different things but they have been shoehorned in together which makes people automatically assume the issues are same. Genius move by the transgender lobby from the very beginning. Also LGB rights isn't taking rights away from anyone else. Trans demands for the 'right' to utilise single sex spaces most definitely is.

Totally different things but they have been shoehorned in together which makes people automatically assume the issues are same

Totally different things require totally different social responses. Conflating the two is a disaster.

Gay rights is an issue of morality. No one denies it is possible to have sexual relationships with members of your own sex. The question is whether or not society deems it morally acceptable to do so.

Trans is the opposite. No one is saying it is immoral to sincerely wish you were the opposite sex, the question is whether that is possible. The answer to which is no, not with our current technology. You can wear what you like, take artificial hormones until you're blue in the face, have endless surgeries and at the end of it all you will be exactly the same sex you were at the start.

No wonder studies show transition does not decrease suicidality. These people are being sold a lie. Society can't make you the opposite sex and it would be far less cruel if everyone were honest about this. It isn't possible.

Not a single person I have read has explained trans-ness in any terms other than those framed by gender stereotypes/norms/expectations in which deviation in thought or deed was a “sign” of trans-ness. I recognize that this could be a limit of understanding and language so I am keeping an open mind about whether transpeople exist...leaning towards the benefit of doubt that they do.

I have also tried to keep an open mind about this, but it is only ever explained in terms of either stereotypes or a 'feeling', which by its nature, can't be objectively described or explained.

I have come to the conclusion that people who are 'trans' fit into one or more of a small number of categories:

Delusion/mental illness - a belief that someone is something they are not. These people may truly believe that they are the opposite sex, but what they need is help to accept reality not instant affirmation.

Fetish (AGP) - applies to many (most? all?) late onset male transitioners.

Internalised homophobia - probably responsible for many adolescent transitioners and also children who are transed by homophobic parents worried that their gender nonconforming child will grow up to be gay.

Attempt to escape from trauma or sexual abuse - in particular a child who thinks that the abuse might not have happened if they were the opposite sex, or that it will stop if they become the opposite sex.