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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Proposed guidance for sex question in 2021 Census

23 replies

MurrayBlackburnMackenzie · 15/09/2019 09:44

There are a couple of articles in today's papers about proposed guidance for the sex question in the 2021 Census.

In Scotland, England and Wales, the census authorities are proposing guidance for the sex question that'll advise respondents to answer based on their self-identified gender.

Articles here:

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/lucy-hunter-blackburn-sex-question-should-stick-to-birth-certificate-1-5004492

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7464527/Experts-warn-new-trans-friendly-guidelines-wreck-crucial-plans-Britains-future.html

There was an excellent evidence session in the Scottish Parliament on this very topic last Thursday. The National Records of Scotland were questioned by MSPs (on the Committee chaired by Joan McAlpine) and asked to explain why they were proposing this guidance in 2021, when there is going to be a separate question on trans status.

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Inebriati · 15/09/2019 11:43

''legal and medical experts warned that failing to accurately record the numbers of females and males in the population could lead the Government to misallocate funds for vital services.

NHS paediatrician Dr Julie Maxwell said: ‘Almost every kind of illness behaves differently in men and women. If the national statistics are skewed in this way so you don’t know how many biological men or women there are, and if you add on to that the fact people are already changing their sex on medical records, you lose any meaningful knowledge of how often health problems are happening in men and women.''

When the Govt (and all of the other political parties) know the chaos this agenda is causing and pushes it anyway, you have to wonder what their end game is.

Thingybob · 15/09/2019 12:31

So they accept that sex is binary by only giving two options, 'male' or 'female' but are giving guidance to non binary people.

Michelleoftheresistance · 15/09/2019 12:45

I watched the video of the original scots parliament discussing this months ago.

Their decision was that the sex question had to remain, although an additional gender identity question would be added, as the importance was to collate factual information that served purpose in designing and planning services, and if the census became a work of fiction (something written by Hans Christian Anderson as phrased in the meeting) then really there was no point in bothering with the census at all.

So the decision was taken.

The political lobby was not pleased, has clearly captured the people writing the guidance, and that decision taken in parliament following extensive discussion and evidence from all sides, is being quietly subverted to the interests of the political lobby by returning those answers to fiction.

Ethics of all parties involved obvious. Draw your own conclusions (because if I spell them out I'll be deleted for truthing)

Ability of that political lobby to 'compromise', act fairly, accept law and the results of fair process, or to care about needs of any other group, or anything at all other than immediate selfish interest? Also obvious. Again.

Michelleoftheresistance · 15/09/2019 12:47

Seriously, if this goes through, I will be answering fictionally and identifying as whatever the fuck I happen to feel like in that moment, because why should the rest of the population have to dance around this particular handbag?

jellyfrizz · 15/09/2019 14:22

What is the point of asking the question if it means nothing? How does knowing someone's self-identified gender give any useful information?

stealthsquirrelnutkin · 15/09/2019 17:57

This is outrageous.

Anyone with an ounce of sense can see the importance of keeping statistical records the differentiate between the sexes. The addition of a question that allows people to register their current gender is a generous concession.

Telling people that it is OK to lie about your sex on the official census is disgusting. All the people responsible should be relieved of their responsibilities and replaced by people who understand why the census exists.

Thingybob · 15/09/2019 20:48

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rzY0jzjXZs

Gosh that was embarrassing watching the squirming and awkwardness of those supposedly intelligent people giving evidence. For an example watch Scott Matheson, Senior Legal Advisor for the Scottish Government from 59:50

Fraggling · 15/09/2019 21:15

I don't understand why they don't think it's necessary to correct sex in the census.

It makes no sense at all.

MurrayBlackburnMackenzie · 16/09/2019 12:47

More coverage of this issue in The Sun and The Telegraph today:

www.thesun.co.uk/news/9934805/fears-for-nhs-over-sex-census/

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/15/trans-people-given-option-putting-sex-different-birth-certificate/

Just to be clear: the census authorities are planning a binary sex question (i.e. it'll give the options of 'male' or 'female' as it has since 1801) but in England, Wales and Scotland there will be a new, voluntary question on trans status.

We argue that the census should collect data on both protected characteristics but separately and that the sex question should not become a question about gender identity and therefore guidance accompanying the sex question should not advise respondents to answer based on their self-identified gender (which is what the census authorities are planning).

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2019/09/09/mbm-statement-on-scotlands-2021-census/

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Fraggling · 16/09/2019 12:49

Originally the scots wanted to remove question about sex and only ask about gender id though didn't they

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 16/09/2019 13:33

Joan McAlpine rocks. This is so simple and logical, or should be. Sex is biological and unchangeable and should be collected in the sex question. Trans identities are collected in the trans question. The data is confidential for 100 years so no-one should be worried about filling it in. Then data is available for researchers needing sex data and researchers needing transgender data.

Thingybob · 16/09/2019 13:37

MurrayBlackburnMackenie Do you know who, if anyone, is challenging the ONS guidance here in England, which in my opinion is even crazier than NRSs? I know there are SMPs, you, women's groups and several academics raising objections in Scotland but I am not seeing similiar concerns being raised in England and Wales.

Michelleoftheresistance · 16/09/2019 18:53

Gah the newspaper articles.... even if someone has had full SRS surgery it is cosmetic only . They still require societal and local planning to meet the needs based on the sex they have been since birth. Prostate health or gynecological care, heart attack care for their sex not their personal preference, etc etc . Surgery does not change that. Nothing ever changes that, it has got to be faced up to.

Nobody changes sex.

And the whole 'it's a tiny number of people, it doesn't mess with data' - utter bollocks. If it's ok to be fictional for one person then it's fictional for anyone who chooses to, which is why there's a huge number of jedi knights recorded in this country. Why should legal compulsion apply to some to be truthful and not others? Let people pick their sex and they will, some out of sheer irritation.

MurrayBlackburnMackenzie · 16/09/2019 22:00

@Thingybob It's true that there aren't any parliamentarians we're aware of speaking up about the census in England and Wales. Certainly not in the way that Joan McAlpine has in Scotland.

That's partly because the parliamentary processes are at different stages. For instance, the bill that will enable a new, voluntary question on trans status has passed through the Scottish Parliament. But the equivalent bill in the UK Parliament was only halfway through the House of Commons when Parliament was prorogued. As we understand it, that bill has now been lost and if the UK Government still want to legislate to bring in a new, voluntary trans question for the census in England and Wales, they'll have to bring forward a brand new bill and start again.

The session in the Scottish Parliament last week was to consider the draft census order. This is the first step towards approving the census questions. Westminster is now running behind so this has not happened there. The census authorities are preparing for a census rehearsal across the UK next month.

It's true that various women's groups have been more active on this in the Scottish context. And that's possibly because things are a bit further ahead up here.

But the issue of the guidance for the sex question is an issue for the census in Scotland, England and Wales.

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Thingybob · 16/09/2019 22:53

Thank you for clarifying the position in England and Wales MurrayBlackburnMackenzie. Im no expert but I honestly cannot see how they will get any meaningful data on either sex, sexual orientation or even the transgender population from the questions and proposed guidance.

littlbrowndog · 16/09/2019 23:25

Yes just watched this, Scot Mathewson squirming ffs

NotBadConsidering · 19/09/2019 04:49

It doesn’t matter what the question is, trans people will answer it however they want:

mobile.twitter.com/DadTrans/status/1174290772201488384

Bezalelle · 19/09/2019 06:42

The amount of bullshit on that twitter thread makes me fear for humanity.

ChattyLion · 19/09/2019 07:23

This is such an important question to discuss. And there is a huge issue here that a lot of people who are naïve to this politics think that trans people want to be labelled as trans (only). That this doesn’t affect other self-described attributes.

Often they think that others being trans has primarily something to do with sexual orientation and assume trans people are always same-sex attracted, but I won’t get into that here. (I think maybe they have in mind old stereotypes of hyper-feminine gay men, for example)

Anyway: If they haven’t really understood things yet, such naïve people think that ‘being a trans identifying person’ means that effectively that if asked on a form, you would tick either: some kind of a separate box third option alternative to male or female if provided, or if given only an M/F box that you would tick your biological sex at birth.

Such naïve people do NOT in any way understand or want to believe that a big part of the genderist politics is that if you identify yourself as trans, then that means you consider yourself to BE of the opposite sex. Just exactly as much as someone who is born into that sex. Not ‘dressed as’, ‘prefers to imagine yourself as’ or ‘wants to be considered by other people as’ that sex. These naïve people are shocked to understand that the belief means a person ‘actually IS’ [of the opposite sex]

So when being walked through the genderist politics they are shocked that someone born a man, would never tick ‘yes’ to a box that asked if they were a man. They struggle to grasp that anyone would tick ‘yes’ to ‘woman’ solely because they identify as a woman and that’s all the validation needed: you identify yourself as a woman and so you ARE a woman for all purposes.

(Note: this politics obviously excludes transsexual males- like Miranda Yardley who would describe themselves as man. Worth a read: medium.com/@mirandayardley)

I’ve spoken to quite a few naïve and well meaning people who care about accurate record-keeping and they are very concerned that a trans-identifying person would not tick the box of their biological sex. Genuinely they haven’t realised that the politics of genderism holds that self identification both trumps and replaces biological sex for self-description purposes.

They are very shocked that there may not be a reliable way within this idealogy to ask people to record their self-reported sex data biologically accurately. They hadnt grasped that a transgender identity isn’t considered something you take on in life, according to the dogma, (because it’s about coming to a realisation of who you have always been. Hence the narrative of babies apparently arbitrarily ‘assigned at birth’ instead of babies being observed to be either female or male.

These naïve people want to ask all people how they identify (an important question) but naïvely they just don’t expect that ‘how you identify’ would ALSO influence anyone’s answer to the ‘what sex are you: F/M/prefer not to say?’ question.

Obviously everyone has always been free to put whatever they want on a self completed form but I was a bit shocked to see the levels of assumptions and ignorance among people who are all very keen to be nice and inclusive but who are also concerned (rightly) to be able to get accurate data on biological sex, since poor data collection affects everyone.

It doesn’t take long before they start wondering how this will affect the conclusions we can draw about trans people if they aren’t truly visible in the statistics and also about what we can assume about male and female people if these groups are self identified out of and into just based on feelings- which can obviously change and change again over time.

NotBadConsidering · 19/09/2019 07:24

Scary isn’t it? There’s a good chance that 1-2% of the census will be completely inaccurate when it comes to sex-based demographics.

ChattyLion · 19/09/2019 07:24

Sorry that was so long Blush

FannieMae · 19/09/2019 07:36

So the English census will ask for someone's biological sex and separately ask for their self identified gender. What' s wrong with that - am I missing something?

Thingybob · 19/09/2019 14:41

The census will not be asking someone's biological sex FannieMae. The guidance explicitly states that the answer to the sex question does not have match the sex recorded on someones birth certificate if a person is transsexual or non binary

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