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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Douglas Murray The Madness of Crowds. Book by Spectator writer on Transgenderism

32 replies

Needmoresleep · 15/09/2019 07:56

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7464157/DOUGLAS-MURRAY-reveals-transgender-rights-one-toxic-issues-age.html

Link to extract in DM.

If and when Bexit is finally sorted, and if Boris remains PM, he will surely be under pressure to rein the madness in.

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truthisarevolutionaryact · 15/09/2019 08:11

What a great article!

AncientLights · 15/09/2019 08:56

Seems to be a bit of conflating of intersex & trans; leaps from discussing the former to Jan Morris who fathered 4 children as James. But a good addition to the cannon.

Needmoresleep · 15/09/2019 09:11

Agree that as an article it is rather clunky, covering too much ground. I assume poor editing of whoever was choosing the extracts. Hopefully the book will make more sense, covering intersex to ensure the distinction is understood.

Useful, though my guess is that the intended audience will be centre-right people, often men, intetested in political phenomena, as opposed to feminists. Looking from a standpoint of regulatory capture, it is an interesting topic.

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JoyceJeffries · 15/09/2019 09:14

Ok I obviously haven’t read the book but transgenderism has so many parallels with tulip mania. It will crash and burn very rapidly.

Childrenofthestones · 15/09/2019 10:00

14JoyceJeffries said......
"Ok I obviously haven’t read the book but transgenderism has so many parallels with tulip mania. It will crash and burn very rapidly."

I agree as long as the Tories win the next election, but even then only just.
If current brand of the left ( ie those with their hands on the levers of power in the labour and liberal parties ) win the next election I would place money down the road on the first female socialist prime minister having a penis.

Inebriati · 15/09/2019 10:57

This is your daily reminder that it was the Tories that introduced self ID and kicked all this off, and all the other parties jumped on board.

The only party not supporting self ID is UKIP, who are also the only ones to be up front and say they want to remove the Equality Act altogether.

This Govt have an utterly abysmal record on women's rights. The others won't be any better, and that includes WEP.

skql · 15/09/2019 11:59

@inebriati
how about brexit party? they were a single issue party but now trying to transforming to 'a party'.
i think they are conserviative...

and what boris think about this?
i mean may-tory and johnson -tory is different i think.

Inebriati · 15/09/2019 12:08

I confess I didn't take them seriously enough to check their manifesto. they aren't conservative, they are further to the right than this Govt, and thats saying something.

I think if a moderate party came forwards right now with some decent policies, they'd be in with a chance.

Needmoresleep · 15/09/2019 12:09

So inebriati, whst is your solution. Blaming everyone is one thing. However the focus needs to get it into reverse.

My belief is that May and the Tories supported all of this because they got it wrong with gay rights and did not want to do the same again. It is not a natural Tory position and is one which is at odds with many in the party.

Once it is understood that sex is different to gender and that LGB issues are different to T issues, and that the latter comes at a real cost to women and girls, the Tories may wake up, and be prepared to face accusationsof 'phobia'. A good proportion of their media are on side, and TRAs are doing their cause no good by calling wolf too often.

Swinson and Corbyn...I despair. Do they actually care about women?

Regulatory capture by TRAs, links with Tory perception of a regulatory capure by the urban leftwing of all sorts of institutions. If Boris survive and thrives, a big if, it may suit him to highlight the craziness of this issue and the lack of critical thinking of leaders of places like the BBC, EHRC NSPCC and so on. This will be described as a right-wing backlash. If it happens they brought it on themselves.

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hipsterfun · 15/09/2019 12:52

My belief is that May and the Tories supported all of this because they got it wrong with gay rights and did not want to do the same again.

The ‘nasty’ party trying to mend its ways - or appear to - and be nice. Which would’ve been commendable had this particular push been properly thought through.

GCAcademic · 15/09/2019 13:04

how about brexit party? they were a single issue party but now trying to transforming to 'a party'.
They are still a single issue party. They had no manifesto in the May elections. It will be interesting to watch them try to agree one as their candidates come from all kinds of political backgrounds, from EDL types to Communists.

NotTonightJosepheen · 15/09/2019 13:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Rocaille · 16/09/2019 06:49

Can't wait to read this. I loved 'The Strange Death of Europe', Douglas's last book.

Michelleoftheresistance · 16/09/2019 09:39

Regulatory capture by TRAs

What will happen in the end is more or less what Thatcher did to stop the unions. It will take someone of that kind of determination and utter lack of compassion to rip this out by the roots, and a hell of a lot of other things will be ripped out at the same time. Yes, women's rights and LGB rights will have to be rebuilt from the ground up.

Thanks for that you utter bastards.

snowbear66 · 16/09/2019 10:30

I think the article covers the topic quite well but not enough inclusion of the female perspective of the abolishing of sex protected rights in changing rooms/ prisons/sport and the closing down of free speech by Twitter/ lesbian erasure etc.
He mentions feminists but fundamentally don’t see it as a men’s rights movement and it’s more about the media portrayal of trans.

I don’t think the trans agenda will blow over quickly and be forgotten -if it gets into law I think that it could be around for a very long time.
Bad practices can hang around for years particularly if they only affect one group and benefit another - look at foot binding in China it lasted 1000 years and affected 3 billion women!

MoleSmokes · 16/09/2019 19:42

Apparently foot binding is making a comeback in China snowbear66

www.ejinsight.com/20140930-foot-binding-revival-china/

If this research is correct then it was not to do with eroticism or status but was to keep girls and women still when they worked with their hands.

Bound Feet, Young Hands
Tracking the Demise of Footbinding in Village China

www.sup.org/books/title/?id=27024

Mothers are doing it to their daughters, mothers of an age when their own mothers were ashamed that their mothers had bound feet. Presumably persuaded by the "beauty myth", so not very different to mothers buying toe-pinching high heels for their children? . . . Or ballet "points"? I believe those are supposed to hurt like hell!

Anyway, I have bought the Douglas Murray "Madness of Crowds" book. (I wish there was a digital edition so I could zoom in to read.)

www.mailshop.co.uk/the-madness-of-crowds-by-author-douglas-murray.html

The references in the Mail Online Review to intersex conditions seemed reasonable. They were arguing that they are different to trans, have an uncontroversial biological basis yet are given relatively little attention compared to "gender identities". Not sure about the stats though - I always have to check back to Claire Graham's MRKH blog to remind myself of the figures for intersex conditions.

The book is not specifically about "trans issues" BTW.

The full title is, "The Madness of Crowds: Gender, Race and Identity"

Description on publisher's website:

"The challenging and brilliantly-argued new book from the bestselling author of The Strange Death of Europe.

In his devastating new book The Madness of Crowds, Douglas Murray examines the twenty-first century's most divisive issues: sexuality, gender, technology and race. He reveals the astonishing new culture wars playing out in our workplaces, universities, schools and homes in the names of social justice, identity politics and intersectionality.

We are living through a postmodern era in which the grand narratives of religion and political ideology have collapsed. In their place have emerged a crusading desire to right perceived wrongs and a weaponization of identity, both accelerated by the new forms of social and news media. Narrow sets of interests now dominate the agenda as society becomes more and more tribal--and, as Murray shows, the casualties are mounting.

Readers of all political persuasions cannot afford to ignore Murray's masterfully argued and fiercely provocative book, in which he seeks to inject some sense into the discussion around this generation's most complicated issues. He ends with an impassioned call for free speech, shared common values and sanity in an age of mass hysteria."

www.bloomsbury.com/uk/the-madness-of-crowds-9781472959959/

There is a lengthy interview with Douglas Murray about the book here - on my "To Watch" list!

Caucho · 16/09/2019 21:30

Oddly the Brexit party are possibly fielding two Transwomen MP candidates in the next general election. I don’t doubt their right wing ness for a second but as said before they’re a single issue party only concerned (openly to give them some credit) with solely Brexit

Caucho · 16/09/2019 21:34

Would be hilarious seeing Farage have to campaign for this person on TV but suspect he’ll give it a swerve. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-lincolnshire-49293841

MoleSmokes · 16/09/2019 23:43

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-49293841

"She said the process of transitioning had shown her how some people could behave badly towards others."

I think we can all agree about that, having been on the receiving end!

The 52-year-old said she would fight for the rights of all groups.

I would have to see that before I believed it.

"Being transgender certainly gives me a unique understanding of people," she said.

Matched by insight?

"When you are a white, heterosexual male... you don't get to see what discrimination really looks like.

No comment . . .

"Lily Madigan, who was the first openly trans woman to be elected as a women's officer in the Labour Party in 2017, previously said she wanted to be Labour's first transgender MP."

How can we ever forget!!

OrchidInTheSun · 17/09/2019 09:01

Afua Hirsch is on radio 4 saying that he's bullying Sam Smith for taking the piss out of him coming out as non-binary and comparing complaining about the "mauling of language" to racism.

TinaBarrow · 17/09/2019 09:43

Wa-hay Douglas Murray "Sam Smith is pretending that sex doesn't exist" & "there's no such thing as non-binary" Star

CassianAndor · 17/09/2019 11:13

I thought the Communists were the only party to have come out against self ID?

Needmoresleep · 17/09/2019 11:14

Sorry. Sam Smith is bullying us. I am only dimly aware of his existence. And to be honest on the pictures I have seen, Sam looks like a man. Sam is telling me to ignore my instincts and experience. That is a big demand. I dont think Sam is entitled to make.

FWIW I noticed the Mail wrote their whole article without using pronouns. I suspect their journalist was thinking 'tedious git' as they convoluted their language.

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Gone2far · 17/09/2019 11:18

Well, anything that the insufferable Afua Hirsch objects to is fine by me

Melroses · 17/09/2019 11:45

I caught that - shouldn't have turned over from clasicfm Hmm

She was just very good at saying the same old things ie What Douglas Murray was saying was racist and what people say about identity politics is the same as they used to say about feminism/being gay etc.

One to one, afterwards, was interesting about 'black identity' (Laurence Hoo - I'm done with race)