A question worth considering.

[Creepster]

“Is excluding trans widows from feminism a price worth paying for having our opinions validated by “transexuals?”

This question has come up several times over the past few weeks.
Where do the wives go for community and support when the transitioned husbands occupy the feminist community?

This pisses me off so much - part of being a feminist is having solidarity with other women, not ditching them for the sake of being an 'ally' to a male.

It's not a price I'd pay. Trans widows first ALWAYS.

It's not a price I'd pay. Trans widows first ALWAYS.

Yes.

As if it’s not enough that trans widows have their identity appropriated, and sometimes their title of mum, they should also expect to loose their place in feminist society so we can allow the humbug?
No thanks.

I can’t answer the second question as asked though because I don’t understand the rational behind it. The logic does not compute for me.

If this question hascome up several times over the past few weeks, I must have missed it.

Who says trans widows are excluded from feminism? Not me. And who needs their opinions validated by 'transexuals' either? Most certainly not me: I am a woman and don't need validation in any way, shape or form.

It's certainly come up on the thread about Debbie Hayton. Our own TinselAngel has pointed out that if her trans ex had been praised here she would never have felt comfortable here.

I hope Hayton's wife knows that many of us would like her to be here.

"Is excluding trans widows from feminism a price worth paying for having our opinions validated by “transexuals?”

Where did this come from?. Trans widows are warmly welcomed here.

I'm glad this question has been raised here so directly. It has been skirted around on here lately and discussed on Spinster.

In my view, feminists who invite our transsexual "allies" into feminism are excluding their female relatives by doing so.

There are people who must believe this is a price worth paying to be able to feel like they are proving their opinions are not bigoted. It will be interesting to see if anyone is prepared to admit it.

makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/a-plea-for-help-for-feminists-from-a-trans-widow

Feminism is for ALL women and NO men. Even if you really dislike the woman’s views or really like the man’s views.

Well it would have been an idea to reference the thread where this had occurred. I can't imagine many of us feeling anything other than great sympathy for Mrs Hayton and would gladly have her here. My feelings for her position solidified when she revealed on the documentary that it was she who'd been asked to tell the Haytons' church friends etc about the transition. Revealing.

I can't imagine many of us feeling anything other than great sympathy for Mrs Hayton and would gladly have her here.

Yes, but the point TinselAngel is making is that it is very likely Mrs Hayton would not feel comfortable posting here because D Hayton is here first.

Welcoming D Hayton limits options for Mrs Hayton.

In a women's space women should come first.

likely Mrs Hayton would not feel comfortable posting here because D Hayton is here first.

And not just here first, also thanked profusely for being here and treated as in important feminist voice.

I would hope trans widows always feel welcome in spaces like MN.

I appreciate the insight provided by transwomen who are critical of gender identity politics. Their voices are part of the growing number of people speaking out against the TRA movement from different areas of society. They bring their own perspective to the debate based on their experience of being trans. I may or may not agree with all of it.

Ultimately though, transwomen are men and trans widows are women, therefore feminist spaces should be supportive of and willing to prioritise the female partners and ex-partners of transwomen. As far as I can tell, this board seems to maintain a good balance, but I could be wrong.

Arnold Yes, and having re-read the 'Make More Noise' piece it falls into place. I wish I could remember the Andrea Dworkin quote about inclusion of all women whatever we think of them as individuals.

What to do then? Is having TW on here & in other spaces useful to us at all? Should there be a purge of known TW here, on Spinster etc? If so, would trans widows join up once they're gone? Genuine questions - I have no idea.

I have found reading the trans widows thread very emotional & informative. Women being disappeared - again.

It's not a price I'd pay. Trans widows first ALWAYS.

Yes.

The issue arose on the thread about the piece in the Times by Hayton on sports.
In a large part down to me having a massive blind spot about the dynamics of how the presence of TW 'allies' (in quotes, the term itself can be problematic) in women's spaces can exclude transwidows. I'm sincerely grateful to tinsel for getting it through my thick skull.

A question arising is what's appropriate and inappropriate when discussing this sort of piece. Would it work better if the discussion was depersonalised to stick to the merits and demerits of the arguments and not namecheck the author? (I don't know if that's the right approach, I would like to know what does and doesn't work for other women).

What to do then? Is having TW on here & in other spaces useful to us at all? Should there be a purge of known TW here, on Spinster etc? If so, would trans widows join up once they're gone? Genuine questions - I have no idea.

I'm not keen on the idea of purges, not that it is a decision we can make anyway, we don't own Mumsnet or Spinster.

Ultimately it is down to individuals how we choose to interact, or not, with all or individual TW. Mostly I think it is important to take on board what transwidows like TinselAngel are telling us and be careful not to come across as 'fawning' towards those TW who have swung a wrecking ball across the lives of their families and expect to be applauded for it. That doesn't mean never listening to their perspectives.

Thank you for being so gracious Errol

Feminism is for ALL women and NO men. Even if you really dislike the woman’s views or really like the man’s views.

Absolutely.

This is the thread referred to:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3682360-Debbie-Hayton-in-the-Times-today

I used to give profuse thanks when males like Debbie wrote an article encouraging people to treat women with basic courtesy and to accord them basic rights of privacy, dignity and safety

now I imagine my response had David Cameron or Jeremy Clarkson written such an article. which would probably be 'well, obviously. next?' followed by a giant eye roll and then thinking about something else

which is a way of saying that I used to get it wrong on this by trying to be polite. Hopefully I get it a bit righter now

no, the feeling of virtue obtained by having males who like to comply with feminine stereotypes of appearance validate your opinions is not worth it, because it excludes their female relatives

Who is saying this? Where are they saying it?

we are saying it implicitly Cassian when we fall over ourselves to thank certain males for stating the bleeding obvious. I know I used to

Ah, right.

Nope, trans widows all the way. Becaus, y’know, they’re women.

What Bernard said ... and another reason that TW writers - even of competent and useful pieces, which I still think that was - don't generally require our gratitude is because they are serving their own agenda. (IIRC Hayton has acknowledged that in the past)

I really don't think our responses when someone writes a gender critical article should be policed in this way. The aim is to get the message out to politicians and the public so policies that are detrimental to women and children change. I try to thank almost everyone who writes gender critical articles. Hell - I would probably thank Priti Patel if she suddenly cracked one out - even with all her questionable dealings. Because it would mean we were moving closer to rolling back the regulatory capture we are up against.
I don't see thanking someone for an article as approval for everything they do. I don't agree with many things that many gender critical people do but that is not the point.

I think there is a separate issue about the support we can give to trans widows on FWR. There was some useful concrete advice given in a thread a few weeks ago and that sort of thing should be discussed more.

I'm sincerely grateful to tinsel for getting it through my thick skull.

As am I. I think it's a blindspot many of us have for far too long.

and that sort of thing should be discussed more

Er... which is what this thread is doing.

Do you think the trans widows should be corralled off into a specific support thread here? Because that is how some of them feel. If them telling us that makes us react defensively, do we not think it's on us to unpack that from a feminist perspective? Not on them to keep quiet about it and stick to their designated area?