Feminism and the WI

[FlamedToACrisp]

My friend suggested I should join the WI. I feel uncomfortable with the idea of joining any group which excludes certain people based on their sex, because I consider women and men should be treated equally. What are your views?

I wanted to try a self defense class recently. It was said to be open to women or those with a feminine identity.. wtf is that if not open to men who think they are women?

I think it's worth querying every single time - phoning to ask about the class, then asking about what 'feminine identity' means, and if it means 'men' telling them that in that case you won't be joining as you want 'women only'.

It's all cheap virtue-signalling at the expense of women.

I am a bit shocked people are so dismissive of the OP

There are lots of responses detailing why people, men as well as women, sometimes prefer single sex groups.

I wanted to try a self defense class recently. It was said to be open to women or those with a feminine identity.. wtf is that if not open to men who think they are women?

I experienced something similar recently, having trained in a mixed sex group years ago I searched for a women's only group locally and they were all biological women until one transwoman joined so I left. I questioned it but was told that this person was welcome to participate in a women's only group.

I have since found a mixed sex group that respects the boundaries of women and the women's changing rooms are only for women.

Because of this I most certainly do not think that the existence of women-only groups justifies the existence of men-only groups.

Hmm, yeah, TBH I don't have a lot of time for this perspective. Many of the women here are saying part of the reason they enjoy these groups is because of the particular sort of socialisation, even just being apart from sexual dynamics. I think men also often enjoy mens groups for similar reasons, they don't need to think about sexual politics, adjusting their speech, performing. And simply, if we expect our interest in just nice social opportunities with women to be respected we should similarly respect the desire of men for certain social experiences.

This is the kind of statement that makes me think that it's not as ridiculous to discuss this as a lot of posters seem to.

While there’s any chance of being a non consenting part of some AGP’s knitting and jam-making fetish, I wouldn’t be going to WI.

There are lots of responses detailing why people, men as well as women, sometimes prefer single sex groups.

Yes, there are, and I think they've brought up a lot of interesting points and I appreciate the discussion. I just don't understand so many comments saying things like, obviously that is a ridiculous question, or even, well, just don't go if you don't like them. I don't see how the existence of single sex groups for what you might call leisure isn't a feminist discussion. Maybe not an earth-shattering one but I do think it's one that introduces some ideas that are new to many people.

I'm a WI member. My branch is relatively new and the membership is mostly over-50s, and we do do quite a lot of the "traditional" stuff associated with the WI, like jam, baking, crafts etc. I am just really put out that, whenever the subject of the WI comes up, there always ends up being a rush of people talking about how it isn't all just "jam and Jerusalem" and the membership is all quite young and funky these days. Why are groups that cater mainly for older women and which reflect their interests held in such contempt? It's like when you see these cringy libfem Facebook groups wanging on about how feminists aren't all hairy-legged women with dungarees and no make-up on, as if there was something wrong with the feminists who do actually look like that.

For my money, the fact that the WI has a fuddy-duddy image is what protects it from being targeted by the TRA brigade. They're not interested in having access to women's space when the women in that space are mostly post-menopausal and are talking about crochet.

Goosefoot

I agree with you.

Posters are expressing how being in women only groups is good for them in that they can open up in ways that they can't if men are present and I think the same is true for men too. So if it's fine to have women only groups then it must be equally fine to have men only groups. Which is why I find it sad that scouts opened up to girls. Yes, I know the argument is fewer boys wanted to go but that isn't true in my area at all. There are many scout groups so why couldn't they combine some rather than admitting girls? I think it would be good for boys to have a place to go where they can be themselves, in the same way that guides offers the space for girls. As it is now, even if sufficient numbers of boys want it there are no groups for only boys.

They're not interested in having access to women's space when the women in that space are mostly post-menopausal and are talking about crochet

Long may they think that is how it is!

I'm sleep deprived today so not sure I can articulate what I want to say but I'll try. My first attempt disappeared when I pressed post.

OP, you say men and women should be treated equally. I agree. Both groups should be free to set up single sex based groups. Equal doesn't necessarily mean the same btw. There are biological differences but we are of equal worth and value.

What's wrong with a group of individuals meeting up in a club or group based on a common characteristic, interest, or belief? Whether based on sex, faith, music taste, or anything else?

I’m a WI member. I joined to widen my social circle and find more friends. It works well for this. I’m also a member of several mixed groups and there are men in these groups who I like and enjoy talking to. But whereas I can easily ask a woman if she’d like to meet up for a coffee, doing the same with a man would seem odd and may well be misconstrued not least by his wife. So I like the women only space and can’t see any problem with it. Sadly for me our group isn’t very radical or feminist - led by a woman who says she ‘doesn’t believe in feminism’.

Thanks, Juells. I'll try to be more assertive and enquire next time. It was a one off taster session and I was excited that it said women only, until I read the detailed description. Then I got all cross and huffy and decided not to go in the end.

I think it was the cheap virtue-signalling at the expense of women that pissed me off more than the possibility of being uncomfortable if there happened to be males there.
If they were honest and said the class was mixed sex / open to all, I might have actually gone. It's the whole pretending a class is for women only but pandering to identity bollocks that's irritating.

I should have asked the instructor what she thought a feminine identity was...

Has feminism changed to mean hating men and not wanting to spend any time in their company?

So you define going to a WI meeting once a week as hating men and not wanting to spend any time in their company? 🙄

You'd have thought that people running self defence classes might realise why some women would need an all female group, wouldn't you?

OhHolyJesus definitely... I would much prefer mixed sex classes that respected women's access to single sex spaces than those that claimed to be for women only but included men.

ErrolTheDragon ha! Yes you'd think so....

I find it’s most often a loaded question when asked about specifically women-only groups or not even a question, it’s a voicing of an opinion. In that we have the spoken part ‘I don’t like these single-sex groups’ with the unspoken part ‘therefore they shouldn’t exist.’, I find it problematic, indeed, disingenuous..
Yes, clearly, the answer ‘then don’t frequent those groups’, which only addresses the spoken part ‘I dislike such groups’ and omits the unspoken ‘they shouldn’t exist/be allowed’, is therefore viewed as unhelpful. Too bad, I’d rather not indulge the agenda of those who think women should not be free to associate only with other women as and when they choose to.

I find it’s most often a loaded question when asked about specifically women-only groups

Not only this but I do find my suspicions raised when a poster starts a thread then doesn't respond to any of the carefully constructed points raised.

Maybe they are busy but personally I would not start a thread if I didn't have time to partake in the actual discussion. It seems kind of rude.

I might be being cynical of course.

If they were honest and said the class was mixed sex / open to all, I might have actually gone. It's the whole pretending a class is for women only but pandering to identity bollocks that's irritating.

Yes to this.

Surely if you want a women only class then you join one that is categorically women only? You don't join a mixed sex class and then complain that a man is present?

But far too often now, as RuthW has confirmed upthread, ‘women only’ turns out to mean mixed sex.

EmpressLesbianInChair

But my point wasn't about trans or self ID. It was exactly as I posted. A mixed sex class in a mixed sex gym. It was just that the women in the class were used to no men going so when a man did go that got particularly territorial about it. My point was if you go to a mixed sex class you should expect it to be mixed sex.

My point was if you go to a mixed sex class you should expect it to be mixed sex.

I don't think anyone disagreed. Other points may follow uncontentious points.

Has feminism changed to mean hating men and not wanting to spend any time in their company?
Yes. Yes it has. Didn't you get the memo? And that new fangled bunch of radicals the WI are leading the way, wearing their husbands knackers as earrings instead of pearls.

I'm a WI member. Once a month I get 2 hours of women only company. it's great. hardly makes me a man hater I think

I suspect the chances of a male joining our group are low. many of the members are older and really quite extraordinarily gender non conforming in many ways (although not in others, most perform some kind of essential caring role for another person). There wouldn't be a lot of affirmation to be found at my institute.

Good post FatherFintan . Nowt wrong with jam making and crafts.