The Plastic Surgery Debate | Heather Peto, Julia Long, Miles Berry

[stumbledin]

(Have not watched this but thought some might be interested)

Blurb says:

We think being authentic is about remaining true to who we are, and many of us consider plastic surgery as a the preserve of tabloid celebritis rather than people like us. But from Caitlin Jenner to Chelsea Manning, plastic surgery is now seen as a means to ensure our bodies reflect authentic inner lives. Should we embrace cosmetic transformation as a way of becoming closer to who we really are, or who we might wish to become? Or should we be seeking to end society's obsession with appearance?

Julia Long: Dr Julia Long is a radical lesbian feminist activist and the author of Anti-Porn: The Resurgence of Anti-Pornography Feminism

Heather Peto: Heather Peto is trans activist and 2017 Labour parliamentary candidate for Rutland and Melton.

Miles Berry: Miles Berry is an aesthetic surgeon and one of the field leaders in reconstructive surgery. His expertise is in abdominoplasty, breast augmentation, face lift, blepharoplasty, mastopexy, breast reduction, secondary breast surgery, liposuction, labiaplasty and transgender surgery, as well as a host of other non-surgical treatments.

I watched the first few minutes. The thing I find most mind boggling is the idea that I am expected to relate to Peto as a woman in any way whatsoever.

I am a straight female who always feels very uncomfortable with sexy women as viewed through the male gaze, much as Peto mentions. But my response isn't to emulate that sexy woman look but to utterly reject it whilst remaining confident in myself.

I see women such as Julia Long and Magdalen Berns as highly attractive. They both look very comfortable in their own skin, are fiercely intelligent, logical and highly persuasive. These are the kind of women I relate to, admire and take as my role models.

Thanks for posting this. Just watched it while having dinner and in a way I'd have preferred the debate Julia wanted to have on this (which touches on unnecessary surgery but encompasses so much more). The guy moderating it really had his work cut out to keep bringing it back within the framing of the discussion.

Would have loved to hear the audience questions but (as is customary) it's not been filmed. Just to know which questions may arise if that was an audience new to the issue and which ones if they were familiar with it.

And just to say, I salute you, Julia, for speaking your unadorned truth. 18 months ago, I might have flinched at your uncompromising language. Now I don't just agree, I use it myself. Transgender ideology and legislation are a violation of women's boundaries. That absolutely needs to be said.

Julia makes so much sense.

Peto’s chin-holding in position.... found that frustrating. Is it supposed to be a feminine affectation? It doesn’t suit.

I can’t speak for any others, but it doesn’t surprise me that a lot of commentary revolves around appearance. Men who go out of their way to appear feminine, but don’t claim to be women tend to be praised. Those who demand we call them women are opening themselves up to objections.

Look at the previous reaction to Eddie Izzard. Doubtless there would be a few narrow-minded people who would have criticised the cross-dressing, but most regarded it as courageous.

Those who try to bully us into submission will always make themselves ugly,

I can't watch anyone tell us how authentic they are whilst simultaneously telling us they need plastic surgery and hormones that are meant for the opposite sex to be so.

Surely that is the opposite of 'authentic' ie fake.

Look at the previous reaction to Eddie Izzard. Doubtless there would be a few narrow-minded people who would have criticised the cross-dressing, but most regarded it as courageous.

Yup, really admired him when he was cross dressing and appeared not to give a fuck. Now view him as a creep.

All of Julia Long's signifiers are traditionally masculine: short hair; cargo shorts; what look like work boots - yet she is undoubtedly a woman.

Peto's signifiers are all traditionally feminine: long, blow dried hair; a dress; calf length boots, jewellery - yet ... well, I'll leave you to make your own decision.

As someone who has an interest in this subject and who is very wary of surgery and constantly struggling to decide where I feel the line between necessary surgeries and unnecessary, purely cosmetic ones lies, I am mostly disappointed Peto was on this panel. Peto's presence makes it 'all about trans' and I think the discussion would have been more interesting had it been between Julia Long and Miles Berry alone.

The other thing that struck me was the moderator expressing surprise at the idea society is more gendered now than a few decades ago.

I would have thought that point was blatantly obvious. Even if you aren't old enough to remember the 709s and 80s surely you've seen films, music videos etc from the time?

I wonder if his surprise was feigned.

709s? 70s!

constantly struggling to decide where I feel the line between necessary surgeries and unnecessary, purely cosmetic ones lies

Surely this has got to be the easiest line to work out. Necessary surgeries: those where you will be in pain, getting infections or getting more ill if you don't have them. Unnecessary: everything else.

Agreed, Arnold, I am very weary of trans being the subject that has to be dragged into every debate. I would have welcomed a discussion on the topic that wasn't taken over by Peto's tedious solipsism.

Also if you want genitals to 'reflect what is inside your head' are you going for brain shaped balls or what?

No, it isn't that easy.

Is a breast reduction necessary if it will reduce back pain? How much back pain is acceptable before the risk of surgery outweighs the detrimental impact of back pain?

If a child is born with a cleft lip that is not causing functional problems but might invite ridicule from other children is it necessary to correct it, again bearing in mind the risk all surgery carries?

These are the sort of questions I ask myself.

Trans surgeries are an easy one. They aren't necessary and do not statistically help enough people to warrant the risk. I am of the view they should be banned, along with anti-aging (for want of a better phrase) type surgeries. Conversely I have no problem with surgeries that correct function problems or address severe disfigurement in the case of accident or burns victims but there are a whole host of grey areas in between.

And as always when I discuss these matters I have to be aware that my own bad experience of minor surgery colours my views.

aliasundercover

That is such a good point - and surely is what underpins the anger directed at women by transwomen.

Also if you want genitals to 'reflect what is inside your head' are you going for brain shaped balls or what?

Mirror balls, must haves for today's narcissist.

Okay Arnold I was aware as I wrote it that the details are more complex than I said. So you will weigh up many factors before deciding on the surgery. But if the basis of the surgery isn't to reduce pain or illness then it is definitely purely cosmetic.

So regarding your breast reduction the pain is guiding the reasoning behind the surgery.

Yes, the pain is the reasoning but, are there other options to address the pain? Is the surgeon exploring these with the patient, encouraging her to try alternatives or rushing her into surgery because profit?

Is the patient actually in physical pain? What if she actually has a psychological issue with her breasts and has realised saying she has back pain will allow her surgery that isn't physically necessary? Is anyone asking those questions or just rushing to surgery because profit?

I'm not expecting you to answer these questions, they are the questions that trouble me because I want people to avoid surgery as much as possible. On the other hand I'm aware things like back pain are hugely debilitating and often not taken seriously.

I always struggle to decide where I think the lines should be drawn. I know a lot of people are of the view that adults should be able to do what they wish to their own bodies but I personally disagree. I don't think it is psychologically healthy for the individual and that society pays a price both financially when things go wrong but also in terms of normalising cosmetic procedures which pressurises more people to undergo them.

That was really interesting.

Julia was ace, as usual (agree with pp that I find Julia very attractive, based on, I assume, her ability to ignite intellectual passion and inspire - assumption made because I am a boring old ‘cishet’, or at least, I am if you don’t count most of the 1990s). I’m genuinely amazed at how many points Julia squeezed in, including terfisaslur.com, mitchfest, beauty standards, online culture etc. Absolutely cracking.

Peto was rubbish. Like, pretty much pointless. Peto made no interesting points at all and left me thankful that Peto has never been elected to Parliament (despite standing twice, former and current identities inc). Can’t imagine Peto having the gonads to stand up and speak in the House, let alone make an effective point in a concise manner.

Berry was interesting. He clearly doesn’t engage with the wider debate and admitted it himself at the end (“I’m not a social commentator”) but he’s obviously clever, as all surgeons must surely be.
I’m glad the difference between plastics and cosmetic types of surgery were pointed out, and yes, in some cases the lines between one and the other are quite fine (as Arnold points out above) and I think Berry attempted to use this line in a disingenuous manner (with the inverted nipple story). I hope Julia’s points about the majority of recipients of cosmetic procedures being female and the majority of cosmetic surgeons being male made him think later - especially as he has daughter, and especially as he appears be the surgeon of choice amongst U.K. FTM people opting for private double mastectomy. Of course, he can always absolve himself by the fact that he requires referral letters from two gender specialists before consult (although you can essentially buy these from two doctors working for the same private gender practice for around £250 a piece).

I’ve heard that traits associated with psychopathy are often found in surgeons (my DD had 3 surgeries last year and one surgeon was sufficiently abrupt with me that the PICU nurse present apologised after he’d left saying ‘they are all at least a bit like that, comes with the territory’). I just googled to see if there was any actual evidence and found this: publishing.rcseng.ac.uk/doi/full/10.1308/rcsbull.2015.331
which suggests that at the very least, successful medical/surgical professionals have high levels of ‘stress immunity’, so they probably don’t unduly worry about whether cutting the tits off a 19 year old is the best option for the long term.

Also, noted that Julia’s point about a 4000% increase in the referrals to GIDS was dismissed as inaccurate in terms of surgical referrals. As that wasn’t the actual point Julia was making I cannot decide if it were a genuine mistake on Berry’s part or if he a)lives in a self centered bubble and believes all points made were directly about his own practice or b) he knew what she meant and deliberately misinterpreted it in order to be able to rebut it.

Apart from that, I mostly listened without watching but occasionally glanced when Peto was speaking because I needed a visual to tell Peto’s voice from Berry’s. Berry’s face when Peto was speaking was interesting... will try and get a screen shot.

Peto’s chin-holding in position.... found that frustrating. Is it supposed to be a feminine affectation? It doesn’t suit.

Madigan does that too. I think they're hiding their Adam's apples.

These are both from Peto’s segment starting around 13:30.
The subtitles are Peto’s voice, and the expressions are Julia and Miles Berry’s facial reactions to Peto’s words:

I watched it. Can’t work out why peto was there at all

Kind off just talked about needing the clothes they were wearing to match their identity. And all about peto really

It would have been much better without peto

Julia spoke about commercial interest s and the pressure put on young peopl e by commercial interests. And that it was 90% women who went for surgery

Oooh and Julia also said about the words surrounding cosmetic surgery that are used like cosmetic

I think it’s like the words used about top surgery. Call it what it is. Double mastectomy

Yeah dumonde. All the authenticity by peto . I guess validated would come into that also

I definitely agree with you that surgery should only been undertaken if the benefits really do outweigh the risks. Basically like you are doing we need to question and be aware of motives behind decisions.

I am very concerned about procedures like fillers and Botox having become normalised. Each time another person has procedures done it makes it more appealing to others.

It's why we need the Julia Long's of the world to argue against it and to demonstrate how just looking natural is such a good thing.

Julia was ace, as usual (agree with pp that I find Julia very attractive, based on, I assume, her ability to ignite intellectual passion and inspire - assumption made because I am a boring old ‘cishet’, or at least, I am if you don’t count most of the 1990s). I’m genuinely amazed at how many points Julia squeezed in, including terfisaslur.com, mitchfest, beauty standards, online culture etc. Absolutely cracking.

This.

I'm afraid I skipped past the Peto bits. That person does my head in.

I was a bit pissed off that someone didn't challenge the surgeon when he said "22 year old girl" - surely at 22 she's a woman? And the point wasn't strongly made that perhaps she is ashamed of her inverted nipples because she's been bombarded by images of sticky out ones? Nice anecdote and if I could afford a good nose job I'd definitely have one, but having the trans person on there should have talked more about genital surgery, mastectomy, voice box shaving etc - that sort of plastic or cosmetic surgery.