Radical lesbian separatists

[Slayerofmyth]

I'm a radical feminist, I'm straight. Getting a lot of flack from other radical feminists who are telling me sexuality and orientation is a choice, and that until women abandon their heterosexuality nothing will change for women......thoughts.....

Can’t say I’ve seen that here. Lots of discussion about whether fabfems (more commonly known as political lesbians) should call themselves lesbian, but nobody trying to enforce anybody’s sexuality.

Thoughts...?

Im not a utopian and i never thought i was a radical feminist until my views got labelled as radical feminism by others (ie thinking that women are a definable category). I often find i disagree with some strands in classic rad fem works written by traumatised women in their 20s emerging from abusive households (cf The Female Eunuch and The Dialectic of Sex). I do think sexuality is more fluid than i used to, so there is never an excuse for saying 'that's just how i am' if you act out sexual feelings that involve abuse of others. However, being physically attracted to men is not abusive either of yourself, the men or society. Accepting yourself is important before requiring change i think.

Of course it’s not a choice, I could never, ever, force myself to be intimate with another Woman, I’m not attracted to women in any way shape or form.
Sounds like the Radical lesbian feminists you speak of are every bit as delusional and cultish as TRAs and MRAs.

Welcome to Mumsnet. Interesting, if contentious, first post.

Where's this happening? You're a bit vague.

langcleg or perhaps the OP has just name changed (as I just have). Why does it matter?

I’ve not come across any radical feminist lesbians telling me that sexuality is a choice, and I hang out with a lot.

Political lesbianism has been around for donkeys years and has always been contentious.

GenderApostate19

Agree. It's really disheartening to hear other women being so vile to heterosexual feminists. I can get on board with heteronormative culture, of course but aren't lesbians and gay men dying because of their sexuality? Why would they choose it if it was purely a choice??

LangCleg

I'm not new, just new username. Its on a radical feminist page on FB.

They are literally hating on hets, as they call us. We're boring, love dick... and are a traitor to lesbians.......apparently.......

What Facebook forum are you referring to?

It's a view that, as those of you who know their feminist hi(er)story will be aware, has a fairly established provenance in radical feminism, notably with the Love Your Enemy essay. (By the way I'm using the term Rad Fem in the way it would have been understood 30 odd years ago, which is different to today's usage I think. And some lesbians did feel it informed their life and choices, eg Julie Bindel- https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/30/women-gayrights

This has come up before. So first of all as has been said before most radfem groups on facebook are about little more than the personal views of those on it. They dont speak for anyone else. And some of them are fairly toxic.

RadFem did not exist 30 years ago. Current Rad Fem has far more to do with what was called Revolutionary Feminism. The difference between that and Radical Feminism is that Rev Fems were anti men, Radical Feminists were pro women.

So for this reason in the past Radical Feminists would often have an additional label eg Radical Feminist Socialist, or Radical Feminist Lesbian, or even Radical Feminist Lesbian Separatist.

And as one answer to your question about there were even Radical Feminist Celibates.

Polical lesbianism was as much about heterosexual women being prepared to challenge heterosexual men's assumption that all women were sexually available to them. So wearing a badge saying Lesbian was telling men dont make assumptions.

Radical feminism is about your feminist practice. ie what do you actually do that reinforces your feminism.

You are just as much a radical feminist if you join or support a local group of young mums and help them say campaigning against council cuts, or probably more so than anyone sitting on facebook standing of a soapbox.

If what unites you is what you have in commons with other women than you are a radical feminist. Being against men doesn't necessarily make you a feminist, and is some cases makes you a lesbian chauvanist!

And before anyone jumps in and says I am wrong I am basing it on having been a radical feminist lesbian separatist for over 40 years ie it is my lived experience not the posturing of keyboard feminism.

stumledin Radical Feminism was indeed a term used 30 years ago. I still have this book published in the 80s with chapter headings about different strands of feminism.

Yes Radical Femists and Reviolutionary Feminists were there and arguing about these issues back then...there was even a song about whether we could ever be friends. We are all still here and still speaking out and mostly getting along just fine, although in the current climate things could be better for all women...

I'm a hetero radfem, never heard or experienced this.

Are you mistaking lesbians with misandrists?

Lesbians don't hate men, they just don't want to fuck them

stumbledin

Yes you're right except that this particular group are tired of helping hets....and getting nothing back. I did point out that many women were actively supporting the rights of lesbians in terms of the trans invasion of their spaces but apparently that isn't enough. The page is apparently full of het gender critical women and not rad femimists. We don't understand the analysis......apparently.....

I’ve been thinking about this a bit. I think that heterosexuality is partly why there is such little progress in terms of equality because men inevitably see women in sexual terms and vice versa. Therefore, there will always be a huge group of women desperate to prove that they are not man-haters and will do everything they can to be anti-feminist. So the movement will never attract all or even remotely close to a majority of women. Most of the ones who say they are feminist now mean it in only the loosest sense. For that reason, I think it is much harder for women to gain real equality and to be centred than e.g. in the fight against racism. You don’t tend to get loads of black people clamouring to say that actually white people are superior and that they love and embrace their mistreatment.

I have absolutely zero idea how this could be addressed though. For lesbians, separatism is a heck of a lot easier than for heterosexual women so it really is asking a lot to ask het women to give up relationships for life and that’s why it will never be successful as a strategy.

We don't understand the analysis......apparently.....

Who told you that?
Genuine question.

One of the admins. Its a secret group on Facebook, i dont want to out it.

A secret group on Facebook and the admins said you don't understand the analysis?

I'd leave the secret group if I were you.

Forthwith

This is a bit sad, really.
Can you really help who you are attracted to? I mean, you can exercise discernment and leave if the relationship is abusive or bad (and you are able to leave) - but the alternative to finding another partner if you are heterosexual is being single. Not becoming a lesbian, surely.

And as a single parent for many years (because I cannot imagine bringing a man into my DC’s lives after the abusive car crash of my marriage), the suggestion that being alone is all there ever will be is quite disheartening, really. Probably not made by a single for a long time person!

I've met feminists who I think are a teensy bit oddball. While I may disagree with taking an idea to an extreme, I think it's perfectly possible to explore and think about the ramifications of a world no longer centring men, and what all the possible ways of putting women first and foremost might mean.

I think that innate sexual orientation, as protected in law, is very specifically a thing. But I do think that if a woman chooses to be separate from men entirely, regardless of her own sexuality, as a conscience choice, then her boundaries are just as valid and sacred as a woman who is naturally only sexually attracted to women.

Otherwise, what are we saying? You can only say a flat no to men if you can't help it? You can't set a clear and firm no to men unless you can prove you have a 'natural' out?

Now obviously, that's not the same thing as trying to coerce a woman to do something she doesn't want to do, which is obviously the very thing that clear and firm boundary respect is all about.

Bottom line, if a woman says no to a man or men, that's it. No negotiation, no further reason required. But no woman should feel coerced in any direction.

I've come across this a lot recently. Lots actually. I had to look up what radical lesbian separatism is. It sounds interesting, in theory.

Those of us that are het are victims of compulsory heterosexuality. We are a product of the patriarchy. We centre dicks/Nigels/xys and we don't stick up for lesbian women enough.

A lot of the thought seems so extreme

I could never be sexually attracted to a woman and I shouldn't have to defend that!

Periodic NC here.

My experience of women who could be referred to as radical lesbian feminists/political lesbians/lesbian seperatists/revolutionary feminists is that they tend to be super-intelligent, clear-thinking, energetic and courageous women and that suggests to me that they are on to something in believing that men sap women's energy, the heterosexual life (in patriarchy) dulls women and that women supporting one-another, separate from men, can help release women's potential in spectacular fashion.

I look up and admire them, but being married to a bloke, I don't feel comfortable complaining about the sexism in my life to them because they'll jump too enthusiastically in support of me.

My main priority in life is motherhood and doing the right thing by my kids. I choose to do this even if it means sacrifice on my part. I was very negatively affected by my parent's divorce and I unfashionably believe couples should stay together for the sake of the kids unless there is actual abuse going on. I know I am dulled, but I choose the heterosexual life because it has brought me deep joy like nothing else and the sacrifice is worth it.

That said, I have never experienced overt challenges to my personal heterosexuality from them and their analysis is overwhelmingly spot on. There are some (no true Scotsmen I know) mouthy women on the edges who can be a bit naive about the practicalities of motherhood/raising/looking after kids or who come out with naive crap about PIV, etc, but it seems to be the case of 'empty vessels' who absolutely don't represent the majority to me.