Interesting article by ex rugby international on trans women in rugby

[BiologyIsReal]

www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/09/02/rugby-rightly-inclusive-sport-research-disproves-safety-risk/

Sorry for length of post but I thought it was interesting coming from the horse's mouth, so to speak, and I know many posters may not be able to access it.

A paraphrase of the article.

Brian Moore, former England international and sports writer for the Daily Telegraph (which, incidentally is the most pro-women's sports of all the nationals and covers more female sport than any other national) has put, as he sees it, the arguments for and against trans women's participation in female rugby. He is a big supporter of women's rugby and two of his four daughters have played rugby.

He says comprehensive scientific research on the topic is vital.

Main points:
*The issue is divisive and rugby authorities have to recognise how disruptive the issue is and must be taken seriously;
*Rugby claims to be inclusive but this will be undermined if it does not get is policy right on transgender players;
*Despite there being few transgender rugby players the Kelly Morgan story attracted "hysterical comments like:This is the death of rugby";
*Men do not suddenly decide they want to become transgender. It is not a trivial decision, but one taken over time;
*Many comments show ignorance of the fact that there are wide disparities in size, weight and power, not least because of the physical requirement of different positions: this does not automatically make rugby unsafe for smaller, lighter or less powerful players;
*Comments about disparities in size, strength etc. should not be ignored because, left unchallenged, they become accepted wisdom and women's rugby has fought hard to overcome the impression it is not suitable for females;
*Informed decisions are being hampered by lack of scientific evidence: there is little or no rugby-specific evidence;
*Not surprising rugby has followed athletics in requiring trans women to take oestrogen to lower testosterone: problem is that this is not universally accepted and some academics claim the range needs to be 5 times lower to remove inherent advantages;
*They also rightly point out that trans women retain the advantages of denser bone structure, greater muscle memory and overall size with bone density being particularly important as it affects ability to absorb impacts in tackles, rucks and scrums;
*Comments on physical safety: rugby has duty to ensure players are as safe as reasonably practical in contact sport:
*"Until rugby has better information on this safety issue it would be wise to restrict transgender women to playing non-contact rugby.";
*This would be allowed by section 195 of the Equalities Act 2010;
*Women's rugby accounts for a quarter of global playing population and has grown in England by 28% since 2017: these achievements could be jeopardised by just one incident of serious injury or one successful legal action caused by participation of a transgender woman;
*Legally, morally and for the good of women's rugby, World Rugby needs to act now;

The final paragraph in full.

"As soon as comprehensive research shows it is possible to put transgender female rugby players in a position where they pose no greater risk of harm than natal females, they should be able to play full contact and be welcomed into an inclusive sport has had a good record of accommodating lesbian and gay people. Those who still disagree should at least be honest and admit their real agenda is not safety."

I can't work out from that final paragraph whether he is inherently against it and is looking for more evidence to ban it or whether he believes rugby should be inclusive of trans women and is taking a sideswipe at those of us who are against it

One glaring error on his part is that he seems to think these trans women all take ages over transition and have undergone the full medical procedures (as opposed to being mediocre blokes who want to succeed in women's rugby rather than fail in men's).

It becomes complex once men have decided that a woman is anyone who says she's one.

As soon as comprehensive research shows it is possible to put transgender female rugby players in a position where they pose no greater risk of harm than natal females, they should be able to play full contact and be welcomed

Very clear thank you Brian. So your bar is so low in the pursuit of ‘inclusion’ that as long as women aren’t killed or paralysed (too often) you’re golden.

As a family who is very close to rugby and has spent a fair amount of time with professional male players this makes me so fucking furious.

Why do the women have to make all the accommodations Brian? When will the men start?

Transgender people can play rugby. With the team which matches their sex.

Verity Smith has transitioned from female to male and plays women's rugby with Rotherham.

In an 2018 interview: His appearance, he admits, has occasionally made playing rugby "a nightmare."

"Because I've got a full beard on the ladies team but I'm still physically female, it makes things a bit more complicated," says Smith, who plays both rugby union and league for Rotherham Ladies and Dewsbury Moore respectively.

Rugby is an inclusive sport. Verity's story shows that women's rugby already has transgender players. Why can't the men do the same?

You just have to ensure that the men's teams aren't full of transphobic assholes who would treat a player differently because they identify as female. But that would take too much effort. Let's just endanger women instead because it is easier and nobody gives a fuck about them anyway.

I have played women's rugby for 20 years and have played in teams including England International players. I wouldn't have a problem playing against Verity Smith, despite the testosterone, but I wouldn't want to play against Kelly Morgan.

I also find the comparison between transgender and homosexual insulting. Someone else's sexual orientation is not my business when I face them on a rugby pitch. But their sex is. One doesn't put my safety at risk and the other does.

I think rugby is an amazing sport and DH and I have introduced our kids to it, but even as a rugby nut, I would hesitate to support my daughters playing senior rugby against biological men in the interests of inclusivity.

Shame, I've always thought well of Brian. Ah well.

Urgh! He’s comparing letting men play against women to supporting gay and lesbian players. He’s thick as shit.

Men do not suddenly decide they want to become transgender. It is not a trivial decision, but one taken over time

It would be good to see what stage in their careers all these men decide to make the switch to female rugby.

Verity Smith has transitioned from female to male and plays women's rugby with Rotherham.

It appears that Verity has been taking testosterone. Is Verity still playing for the women's team? According to the current England Rugby Transgender Policy, a female player who has taken testosterone should not be playing on the women's team. This was changed this year, so the rules may have been different at the time of that interview.

A player may only play contact rugby in the sex they were assigned at birth until written confirmation is received from the RFU that they may play in their identified gender, save that a Transgender male player who decides to undergo hormone treatment will not be eligible to participate in the female category of rugby from the date that hormone treatment has commenced.

For clarity, their definition of a 'transgender male' is 'A person who was assigned as female at birth based on their sexual characteristics, but who identifies as male'.

@OldCrone

He was playing in 2018 but may not be now. I was using it as an example of how the Trans community has already been accommodated by Women's rugby.

I really feel the obsession with Testosterone is lunacy. Taking testerone can give an advantage in elite level sport but when taken as an adult, it is not going to fundamentally change your body type to male.

IMO, it would be dangerous for Verity to be forced to play men's rugby. Just like it is dangerous for Kelly Morgan to be allowed to play women's rugby.

For me, the clear answer for amateur rugby is that transmen continue to play women's rugby and Transwomen continue to play men's rugby.

But this doesn't play into the narrative of Transwomen are women.

Because I've got a full beard on the ladies team but I'm still physically female, it makes things a bit more complicated," says Smith

I assume Smith got the beard by taking the performance enhancing drug testosterone.

I have no more time for the Smiths and Max Beggs of this world than I do for the H Mounceys and R McKinnons. They are all cheats.

There was one MTF in mma or possibly boxing who continued to fight against men. That I can respect.

(before anyone mentions it I am aware Begg wanted to compete against boys but was not allowed. This does not excuse Begg's cheating. Begg should have given up competition until old enough to compete in an open category against men, not cheated against women)

We don't need comprehensive research to prove this.
It is not complicated.

Men playing rugby in a womens team is likely to be more dangerous for the women.

Wake up Brian.

Brian seems to have missed the basic premise that women’s sport is for women. Not hard to define or requiring further research.

For men like Brian, women's sport is for weak people. That's why Brian is suggesting that it would be ok for men to play in women's teams if it can be proven that they are not a safety risk.
Men who want to play sports but don't want to be seen as men are not women's problem. They need to sort it out amongst themselves.

I really feel the obsession with Testosterone is lunacy.
Yup. How did a banned substance become an 'inclusive' solution?

Brian is a doofus and always has been, I don’t even respect his views on the game of rugby, let alone what is a women’s issue.

No Brian, it isn’t just about safety. It’s ABOUT WOMEN. Our rights. Reality. Our sports not being a dumping ground for men who are delusional. Brian can piss off

To Canada

He was playing in 2018 but may not be now. I was using it as an example of how the Trans community has already been accommodated by Women's rugby.

Women have been accommodating to women who transition, even when they take substances which would earn other women a ban. Men chuck men who transition out because they don't want feminine or effeminate men on their teams. Women are accommodating to them even when it puts them in danger and excludes a woman who could have been playing in their place.

Do you see a pattern here?

I really feel the obsession with Testosterone is lunacy. Taking testerone can give an advantage in elite level sport but when taken as an adult, it is not going to fundamentally change your body type to male.

But it does give women who take it an advantage over women who don't. Non-transgender women who take testosterone are banned for doping.

Of course reducing testosterone doesn't change a man's body type to female either.

IMO, it would be dangerous for Verity to be forced to play men's rugby. Just like it is dangerous for Kelly Morgan to be allowed to play women's rugby.

The difference is that Verity playing men's rugby would only be dangerous for Verity, so Verity could decide not to play because it's too dangerous. Kelly playing in the women's team is dangerous for all the women in Kelly's team or playing against Kelly's team, which could force some of those women out because they feel it is too dangerous for them. The two examples are quite different.

For me, the clear answer for amateur rugby is that transmen continue to play women's rugby

So you end up with different doping rules for women who are transgender and those who are not. With this sort of system we'll end up with a lot of women identifying as 'transgender' so that the use of testosterone for performance enhancement is suddenly legitimate.

I know I've said this before, but transwoman Jaiyah Saelua is taking an admirable line - continuing to play men's football and speaking openly ab the need for the men's game to be more accepting of gender non-conforming men.

I have mentioned before that after reading more about Jaiyah, I don’t think they share GC views at all. Look at their twitter and you’ll see plenty of retweet’s about transgender people in sport etc They wouldn’t have been able to represent Samoa as a woman either, which I think is the only reason why they’re in the men’s

Men do not suddenly decide they want to become transgender. It is not a trivial decision, but one taken over time

I don't think I'll ever get over the sheer bonkers nature of this common pro-trans argument.

"Men really take their time over this obsession. They fixate on it for ages. Therefore we should seriously consider waiving all sensible and fair restrictions on their activities. It's only right."

What the ever living fuck???

Exactly!!

I agree rugby should be inclusive. Men - get over yourselves and welcome TW onto your teams. Women’s sports are not yours to give away.

I know a sporty teenager who loves rugby. She would need to leave the sport if this became an issue locally, a couple of the other girls would too (very quietly... not drawing attention to themselves).

"a female player who has taken testosterone should not be playing on the women's team. This was changed this year"

What?

This is legalized doping...claim you are FtM, claim you still want to play on the women's team, claim you need testosterone for your dysphoria and voila, you just legally took a banned PED.

This world is crazy.

This was changed this year

The 'change' I was referring to was the new transgender policy, which says that a woman taking testosterone is not allowed to play for a women's team, but I don't know if this rule was in force last year (when the player was interviewed) because I haven't seen the previous policy.

Ah ok, so they stopped legalized PED taking. Well, at least that is good.