A rational fear of men?

[RoyalCorgi]

I'm just posting this as an observation.

I've been on Twitter this morning, and one of the first things I saw was a link to an article in the Guardian by a mental health nurse about helping people who suffer from paranoia. It was titled: '''A patient thinks her landlord will stab her': my job as a mental health nurse"

A few tweets below that was linking to a story in the Mirror: 'I'm scared my killer ex will murder our daughter'

The Mirror link was tweeted by the Victims' Commissioner for London, with this comment: "The family courts, for too long, have allowed abusers access to their victim & allowed abuse to continue via proceedings & unsafe child contact orders. Time to shut down this state sanctioned abuse once and for all & fully protect those at serious risk of harm."

I was just struck by the juxtaposition.

I’ve thought this about so many things being described as phobias. There are many fears that are not irrational.

Fear of men is totally rational. Bearing in mind there is no punishment for rape and often, murder. There is literally nothing that they can't do.

Yes. I had a conversation with someone over the weekend about the cup of tea / consent teaching going on in schools and elsewhere. I presume everyone's aware of it:

www.adweek.com/creativity/still-dont-understand-sexual-consent-its-cup-tea-says-brilliant-psa-167823/

We're teaching our girls and young people that they have a right to say no and hold their boundaries except when a trans person who is obviously a man hoves into view, at which point they must 'include without exception' to quote Stonewall, ignore any fear and concern and pretend he's not a man. The conversation arose because the person I was talking to was a member of a women's choir that has recently had its first transwoman turn up expecting to be welcomed and has been posting on the choir WA group about how wonderful it is to be allowed to express their true selves surrounded by other women: it's very 'I'm a laydee!' stuff. Completely oblivious to how the huge majority of the group feel – invaded, insulted, patronised...

We're telling girls and young women two conflicting things; be careful, be clear, don't take risks around men, be aware that many men will exploit you if they get the opportunity. But any man who says he's a woman, even if he's looking at you or behaving in an unsettling way, has to be trusted.

I am fearful of men. Not all men, not all of the time. But it makes some sort of sense to be wary of a ‘group’ who are generally stronger than I am.

We are living in a very dangerous world. I don't know how best to negotiate it. My dgd is 7. I'm thinking we ought to be helping her differentiate between what she's told and what seems right to her, to keep quiet for self protection and to trust her own judgement.

We've been forced on to the back foot with the inclusion debate / dictat. I find myself only arguing on safety grounds (and even then I'm not listened to) whereas women's right to spend time being with, doing things with other women is equally important in our everyday lives. We all know that the appearance on even one bloke (regardless of how they identify) in a female space entirely and permanently changes the dynamic. How bloody dare they. So utterly self-centred.

be careful, be clear, don't take risks around men, be aware that many men will exploit you if they get the opportunity

We (as in society collectively) tell girls this right up until the moment they disclose that they have already been exploited or abused by a man.

As soon as that's been disclosed, we tell them that their experience is colouring their perceptions, and namalt, and they need to work on themselves and their irrational prejudice.

Adding men-we-have-to-pretend-are-women to the mix just adds an extra layer of shit for girls to suffer cognitive dissonance around.

Experience does colour perception. This means we should pay more attention to the stats, not less. And the stats say a fear or wariness around men is rational, well-founded, and a useful survival tactic.

Perfectly rational. My fear is informed by experience and has a purpose - to keep me safe. I've been attacked twice, harassed countless times. Most women I know have suffered male violence of one kind or other.

Like all other rational fears, my fear levels are situation dependant. I'm generally not scared of the men walking through my supermarket at half past two in the afternoon. But I went for lunch on my own recently, in a restaurant where the toilets were three flights of stairs down, completely deserted, down a badly lit hallway. I felt incredibly vulnerable and uncomfortable. So much so that I won't be going back to that restaurant unless I have company.

Being wary of men is a rational way to behave.

An analogy: I love dogs. I can’t get enough of them, and I’ll happily annoy strangers by wasting their time fussing over their animals. However, I’m still wary of a dog that’s unknown to me. Some dogs are dangerous and aggressive, and it’s not always possible to tell which. I’m careful around new dogs until I’ve assured myself they are safe and friendly.
My attitude towards men is similar.

I think it's natural to feel vulnerable when alone in certain circumstances but usually the fear is out of proportion with the risk. I'm 4x more likely to be attacked by a strange man than a woman is, yet it's never happened to me personally (although it has to a few people I know).

Odd that you're four times more likely to be attacked by a man, but never have been....

Whereas pretty much all women have experienced countless low-level-through-to-high-level assault experiences from men.

Me - I'm lucky enough just to have experienced countless low level assaults. But trust me, it is countless.

That's probably why many women have a rational fear of them in certain situations.

Funny old thing, statistics....

aliasundercover

That's a brilliant analogy

Well, you probably only hear about the women who have been attacked.

I was talking about strangers however (in the context of being scared when alone in public places) but if I'm not mistaken the overwhelmingly majority of rapes/assaults come from somebody known to the victim.

It would make more sense to be scared of your partners and male friends/colleagues horrible as this sounds.

@Qcng
men aren't dogs though

No, men aren't as loyal as dogs.

NB If any sensitive men are reading it's a joke.

No, men aren't as loyal as dogs.

But we're definitely as dependent on being fed. 😂

if I'm not mistaken the overwhelmingly majority of rapes/assaults come from somebody known to the victim.

You are correct: around 80%. However, I'm much more likely to be attacked by a male stranger than a female stranger, and the male stranger can inflict upon me all the nasty things that a female stranger can, with more strength, and can rape me as well. So I'm going to have a reasoned fear of all men. As PP said, it's situationally-dependent: I'm more scared on a crowded train than on a mostly-empty one.

No, men aren't as loyal as dogs.

Actually there's a quote from Mark Twain on that very subject:

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man."

WhoLetTheFrogsOut

I think it's natural to feel vulnerable when alone in certain circumstances but usually the fear is out of proportion with the risk. I'm 4x more likely to be attacked by a strange man than a woman is, yet it's never happened to me personally (although it has to a few people I know).

I think you need to tease those stats out a bit, apples and oranges really. Random violence, yes men are at highest risk (from other men - 98% of violent crimes committed by males )
So, men should probably be more careful, don't drink or go out alone at night or talk to unknown men.

Sexual violence? Overwhelmingly female victims, in the realm of 90%. In my country, the stat is 1 in 5 women have been sexually assaulted (which is fairly consistent across the world). Do you know 5 women? Then you most likely know at least one woman who has been sexually assaulted.

The perpetrators, overwhelmingly male, in the realm of >99%.
As for the perpetrators being known to the victim, the most common perpetrators are acquaintances - not partners, ex-partners or family. This is even more pronounced with juvenile victims.

I don't know that those quotes are really talking about the same kind of scenario. The real question in terms of "are men dangerous" isn't are they more dangerous than women, it is how likely are you to actually be in danger, at least statistically speaking. And many people are not good at that kind of differentiation, studies of risk assessment of men and women show that people generally make great errors, thinking things that are safe are risky and vice versa.

It's true that when we know people are a known risk, like an abusive ex, or someone with certain flags in their behaviour, it may be reasonable to specifically fear them doing violence. It may make sense to be more fearful of a generic women than a generic man.

On the other hand if there really is little chance that the ex is going to kill your daughter, maybe he lives on a different continent or has never been violent to a child, or there is no reason to think your landlord is going to stab you, living with crippling fear over those things can ruin someone's life. Most landlords never stab their tenants, that is incredibly rare, and if someone is unable to function in their life over that fear, it is not male violence that is ruining their life, it is anxiety of some kind.

With cases like courts or police discounting danger, that seems mostly like a system problem - how does the system assess which cases are really dangerous and which are not. Individuals are unreliable in their assessments so there needs to be some system for making determinations - so questions about that system, why it works or fails or why it is being used or ignored, are really important.

We're telling girls and young women two conflicting things; be careful, be clear, don't take risks around men, be aware that many men will exploit you if they get the opportunity. But any man who says he's a woman, even if he's looking at you or behaving in an unsettling way, has to be trusted.

Absolutely.

I have a rational fear of men after my life experiences. I finally learnt how to set and maintain boundaries and now apparently that's Bad and Wrong and Not Allowed. Well I'm going to do it anyway, nobody gets to decide what boundaries I'm allowed apart from myself.

It's so awful seeing both men and women tell other women that their boundaries are hateful and bigoted.

I think you need to tease those stats out a bit, apples and oranges really. Random violence, yes men are at highest risk (from other men - 98% of violent crimes committed by males )

So, men should probably be more careful, don't drink or go out alone at night or talk to unknown men.

They are careful and most learn quickly.

The risk of violence to men from other men isn't constant throughout their lives. By far, the flash points I'd say would be from early teens until early twenties-ish. The risk of violence is from men in the same age range. As with buying property - its also location, location, location, those young men quickly find out the parts of town or other villages to avoid.

Well, you probably only hear about the women who have been attacked.

I was talking about strangers however (in the context of being scared when alone in public places) but if I'm not mistaken the overwhelmingly majority of rapes/assaults come from somebody known to the victim.

It would make more sense to be scared of your partners and male friends/colleagues horrible as this sounds.

I'm not talking about being attacked thanks.

I'm 'only' talking about the (countless) low level stuff - and without exception - every single one of the low level incidences I've experienced has been from a stranger.

Grabbed at in the street, groped in bars, pubs, clubs, public transport. Whistled at, shouted at, commented on, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

All the stuff that (especially) young women have to put up with as routine from men (it happened almost daily for a significant period of my life) - all the low level stuff - that's from strangers, because men you actually know don't tend to do that sort of harassment.

Men you know will lift it up a bit to next level, and I've been fortunate enough not to experience that.

It's because of all the low level stuff from strangers that I still have that left-over, visceral reaction around some men, in certain situations, even though I'm now middle-aged.

Men have no idea what it's like to experience this sort of low level (but with a very real fear that it could escalate) constant harassment from other men.

Yeah, it's undoubtedly different for each of the sexes.

That said, I don't think you can discount men's experience if you haven't lived as a man. We don't have to deal with the harassment many women experience but on the flipside we're the main victims of serious violence and homicide. Men get their heads stamped on/glassed in the face etc much more commonly.

Not that it's a competition obv.

Men get their heads stamped on/glassed in the face etc much more commonly.

By men, which only goes to prove the point that men are dangerous.