Help!

[Madvixen]

I've got involved with an argument on FB regarding a trans woman (with a beard and stubble) was assaulted after a woman complained to her husband that a man was in the ladies. I've been very clear that the violence is unacceptable but I've also stated that someone who presents as a man is displaying contempt for women (a sex class they wish to be a part of) by using the women's toilets and a distinct lack of empathy around women's lived experience eg rape. Please help me rebut the following arguments as I'm getting too emotional (my brother is one of the ones piling onto me) to create a cohesive argument

1. westerners are so funny about toilets. Most toilets around the world are unisex
2. my home bathroom is gender less and doesn't cause any issues
3. (to my mind the most offensive one) women with PCOS have beards and stubble - should they be banned from using women's toilets as well?

1. where? I’ve not seen this
2. so anyone can walk in off the street and use it?
3. why have a beard if you wish to present as a woman? Would imply no hormones or medical intervention - so a woman in thought only?

A) Any data that you care to look at shows sex offences increase if the facility is unisex. Every aid agency in the land is busy trying to promote sexism segregation in poorer countries, for that very reason. Not the opposite.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html%3Famp

B) you don't invite a stream of strangers into your home bathroom. To the tune of hundreds per day.

C) Men commit 98% of all sexual crime, not women with PCOS.

Although, if someone is arguing for unisex facilities on the basis of your home bathroom, I would say they're an idiot, who can't think critically and is not worth engaging.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk

*sex segregation, not sexism segregation !

1, a lot of non western countries either are more restrictive in allowing women to go out unaccompanied and so the need for toilets for females are reduced and there are a much higher incidence of sexual assaults for women who do use them. Also organisations campaign for these reason for single sex toilets.

1. The people using your bathroom are known to you so not comparable.

3 women with pcos are female and so do not pose the same risk as males. Also that is a terrible statement and disrespects the women who suffer from this, the people using this as an argument should be ashamed of themselves.

1. most toilets around the world are unisex Citation needed. I’ve travelled a lot, and that’s not been my experience. It’s also irrelevant. The expected situation in the UK is that loos are Sex specific. To see someone of the opposite sex in your loo is an unexpected incident and therefore suspicious. What happens in other parts of the world has no bearing here.

2). You are unlikely to encounter strangers in your loo at home. (This is the daftest argument you have been given, by the way, the situations are completely different.

3. a woman with a beard is a woman. A man with a beard is not.

However, my advice is to not engage at the moment. You will not convince anyone in this way, you’ll just get angry at your inability to do so, make them entrench their positions, and possibly get a rep as hysterical if you’re too emotional to be cohesive.
If you really want to change somebody’s mind (this is an incredibly difficult thing to do) you should probably wait till you’re in a better frame of mind. And discuss it with people one at a time - it’s impossible to argue against a group.

Good luck.

1. westerners are so funny about toilets. Most toilets around the world are unisex.

And they are associated with a high risk of sexual assault, which is why many charities are introducing single sex toilets.

''In the village where two girls were gang-raped and hanged earlier this year, toilets may help protect women and health''
www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/aug/28/toilets-india-health-rural-women-safety

''Toilets save lives''
www.wateraid.org/stories/toilets-save-lives

''How increasing the number of toilets can reduce violence against women''
www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/women-and-girls/increasing-number-toilets-can-reduce-violence-against-women/

''Poor toilet design puts women at risk of harassment and poor health, charities warn''
www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/women-and-girls/toilet-design-puts-woman-risk-harassment-poor-health-charities/

2. my home bathroom is gender less and doesn't cause any issues.

If you leave your front door open to let strangers use your toilet it would invalidate your home insurance. Why is that?

Pupils [ie girls] are missing school because they don't like mixed sex toilets and 'period shaming' is one of the main issues
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/pupils-missing-school-because-dont-15839558.amp

My father bored a hole through the wall to watch his daughters use the bathroom. And when it was found he peeped through the keyhole.

Bathrooms at homes are not safe places for some people.

The first sexual assault I heard about in a public toilet was by a man on a young boy, 10 years old, whose mother was waiting outside. I have a family member who is a journalist.

OP was this the story on Reddit - the husband didn’t realise the person was a TW (they had only been on HRT for 2 weeks and had the appearance of a large, tall man)?

It was clear they had no idea how intimidating their appearance was (kind of like that sword-wielder). They should have used male (or mixed sex if available) toilets.

The assault was wrong. Violence is not the solution to the risk of male violence - single sex spaces are.

I would not engage to answer individual arguments. I would target the lurkers on the FB conversation and say something along the lines of: If anyone is interested in learning more about the issues associated with and impact on women's rights of self-ID a great place to start is to look at the Fair Play for Women website (fairplayforwomen.com).

People should not be assaulted.

The husband was the person most in the wrong. He assaulted someone.

Nothing appears to be said about the conduct of the TW in the lavatory, only their presence in it. Was the only issue was insufficient hairlessness (for there appears to be no mention of inappropriate conduct of any kind)?

I actually think it’s (some) white people who are weird about toilets, wanting to jumble men and women together!

It mainly seems to be (some) white people driving this social change, wrongly appropriating other cultures to support their cause.

In my culture growing up families who could afford it had two bathrooms, separated by sex. I was quite shocked at party my grandparents held, when men and women (white people) went to either toilet!

OP I get like you, very emotional and so I make sure I take some time before replying (even if I have to type and not press send) - you want to make sure that your responses are factual and not emotional in any way. As a pp said, put a link on for lurkers.

The arguments they have given are pathetic BTW and pp have all said it in a more eloquent way than I. I am very sceptical about that story from reddit.

@Madvixen
"1) westerners are so funny about toilets. Most toilets around the world are unisex" - this is irrelevant. We work with what we have in OUR culture and society.

"2) my home bathroom is gender less and doesn't cause any issues"
Your home is not a public space; your bathroom is one room rather than a set of stalls.

"3) (to my mind the most offensive one) women with PCOS have beards and stubble - should they be banned from using women's toilets as well?"
Women with PCOS may have these traits but they are under huge pressure to hide them. It's absolutely not a fair comparison.

I'm so sorry your brother's part of the pile-on. Such a lack of empathy for women.