Feedback on loos to architects and property developers?

[kenandbarbie]

In office buildings.

Discussion was in a meeting with the property developers, architects and office agents about what to provide in a large newly built office building. Mostly men (including my dh who is an office agent). They are all feeling under pressure (by possible future tenants wanting to be pc) to provide gender neutral loos and don't know what to include.

The architects suggestions were:
A row of individual full door height cubicles with basins called superloos, some labelled male, some female, some non gender. No lobby, just off the common circulation areas such as central lift core.

Problem the people at the meeting saw: takes up way more space than normal male and female toilets. Space taken up with toilets can't be rented out. Expensive.

I pointed out to DH that you would also need tampon machines and sanitary disposal boxes in each cubicle as well as a basin. So they'd be even bigger.

Dh boss suggested male and female as normal, be brave and say no to non gender toilets.

Other alternative they discussed, male block, female block and a gender neutral block or toilet cubicle. But then they think they'll have the problem of transgender people not wanting to use transgender toilets and also complaining if they only have one cubicle. I pointed out there is usually only one disabled cubicle so they would have the same provision as a disabled user (without any biological need).

Any feedback I could give to dh? I think it would be helpful to provide a bit of women's input to decision makers.

N.b. I know I'm saying gender not sex, that's because I'm describing their discussion.

I think the single contained cubicle is the best gender neutral solution. But it does take up more space.

I'd ask your DH not to allow a situation to be designed in where women are less safe just because it's cheaper to provide.

Oh yeah I also forgot dh pointed out that as men stand up to wee and get wee on seats and how clean male toilets end up generally (as in not very) that would be a problem for women sharing their cubicles.

(Quite impressed he pointed that out!)

Well he doesn't really get to allow anything!!

Suggest rather than allow then

All he can do is point out pros and cons to the decision makers.

Are there any drawbacks to the super loo individual cubicles from a women's viewpoint that aren't mentioned above?

Would male block, female block, disabled cubicle, gender neutral cubicle work?

I don't really get what the super loo thing is? Is it just cubicles with basins inside?

I'm not sure it complies with the law assuming you are in the UK (www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/toilets.htm) and I wouldn't want to just be in a cubicle in a room with men. They could stick their phones above or below the partition.

The disabled toilets are always gender neutral. Does It have to be all or nothing?

What about a 'utinals' section with no cubicles and then a ladies toilet with cubicles and a few disabled / gender neutral 'super loos'?

Incidentally women need more space for toilets than men.

I believe legally you have to have both male and female due to HASAW.

Oh and please, please put sanitary bins and tampon machines in the disabled toilet.

In our work we have superloos on a couple of floors and male & female on other floors. So there are choices across the building. I think they are correct in that trans people may not use the trans toilets though, if they are separated by sex.

I quite like the superloos at work. Not dirty but can stink of man shit a lot.

The superloo is lots of individual rooms full height, each with a basin. Each cubicle is a totally separate room.

What we have ended up doing in the office so far, is have 'unisex' toilets for everyone to use, and a separate female toilet. (We only have five or six staff). So female toilet has san-pro and bin, unisex has cubicles and shared sink. So far everyone seems happy enough with this, though it may change again when we look at provision/renovation.

Are there any drawbacks to the super loo individual cubicles from a women's viewpoint that aren't mentioned above?

We have 'super loos' at work, not quite as discussed here, they are male and female blocks inside which are individual toilets with contained sink and in the ladies sanitary bins and (this is a public space) free tampons/sanitary towels on the back shelf of each cubicle.

They are awful, far, far too small. I'm not a big woman by any means (5'6", 8 stone 4) and my bum barely squeezes onto the toilet seat between sanitary bin and ordinary bin.

Whether individual cubicles are in male/female blocks like ours or open onto a common area they need to be much larger than we have. At least twice the size.

I also have concerns about what happens if someone faints or otherwise takes ill in a closed cubicle. Will they all be fitted with alarms as disabled facilities often are?

I personally favour old fashioned single sex toilets with the addition of a small number of 'gender neutral' cubicles for those who don't wish to use the appropriate facilities for their sex and a strict ban on wrong sex use. Trans privilege activists wouldn't like that though.

Off topic OP but please ask them NOT to put a dyson hand dryer in the disabled toilet, they are impossible to use with a stick, crutch or from a wheelchair.

And while I'm moaning about toilets, let your husband know those push button flushes are far too stiff. I really struggle with them and I'm an able bodied 40 something. The elderly and younger children using our facility can't get the damn toilets to flush at all. Get old fashioned lever flushes, or wave your hand at them sensors.

I suppose there might be issues in terms of women not having a shared space if someone's having a miscarriage or needs to borrow sanpro? But I've not encountered those issues myself.

How good are the super loos in terms of noise? I know some women wouldn't feel comfortable farting/pooping in front of men due to social expectations.

More common problems I've experienced are that cubicles are never wide enough for a sanitary bin and the toilets are centred so the sanitary bin ends up sticking up over the loo seat. It would make much more sense to have the loos off-centre.

Are there mirrors in the superloos? Muslim women may need somewhere without men to readjust their headscarves?

Also, I'm still not entirely clear on the layout but if it's an enclosed mixed-sex space with private unisex cubicles/rooms in it, it makes it much easier to plant spycams than the traditional set-up.

Not very common in the UK but it does happen and is a big potential liability for the employer.

The truly daft thing here is that 99% of the population are perfectly happy with male & female groupings.

Would women's and gender neutral be an acceptable combination? At least that way women get their safe space. Except of course that would give TW any validation would it?

If they do go down the gender neutral route, individual cubicles need good extraction, or they stink to high heaven.

Self-contained rooms: take up space; increase queues (and create queues for men) at fines of high demand; remove a single sex space for women where they might change/ do make up etc without taking up a cubicle; remove a single sex space for women to come together at tones of crisis; and decrease the chance of individuals having difficulties being offered help.

In addition, self-contained cubicles are generally more unpleasant than normal cubicles. I was talking to someone about this the other day and we think it is something to so with the fact that when you are in a bank of cubicles you are very conscious of the women outside and there is more of a sense of community responsibility to keep it clean and to not keep people waiting (at the most basic level people can hear what you are doing) In a self-contained cubicle you are more likely to treat it as your own space (rather than a shared space) and therefore with be lazier and take longer.

I am not sure anyone is advantages by a bank of self-contained and surely Mens, women’s, disable and a unisex cubicle (or cubicles) is the obvious answer. I am not sure what it has got to do with which space transgender individuals should or would use; that is a separate question.

In any event, I am not sure why men and women should lose the advantages of single sex loo blocks when the needs of those uncomfortable using either can be easily accommodated in another way.

*times, not fines

Are there any drawbacks to the super loo individual cubicles from a women's viewpoint that aren't mentioned above?

a predatory man person could push his victim into one and lock the door on them.

and what happens if someone falls unconcious on the toilet, how will help get to them. how can help be alerted.

wifi/mobile signal is disrupted in our work toilets.

I think the superloos sounds like the best option here.

And yes, like PP have mentioned make the cubicles big enough so the sanitary bin is not touching the toilet.

I think the superloo idea is the best in the circumstances.

Problem the people at the meeting saw: takes up way more space than normal male and female toilets. Space taken up with toilets can't be rented out. Expensive.

Yes, the standard design does take up less space. This, for me, has been the huge problem with introducing gender neutral loos. They generally leave the men’s loos untouched because they have urinals and reduce the number of women’s, even though women need more loos than men.

I wish we could really rethink how lavatories are planned in public spaces and workplaces. The standard disabled loo is not suitable for all disabilities:

www.changing-places.org/the_campaign/what_are_changing_places_toilets_.aspx

That is going to need more space too.

Yes to Arnold arthritic fingers are not ideal for push buttons, as for someone with prosthetic limbs - virtually impossible.