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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

In support of Amy Dyess

159 replies

AllNaturalWoman · 27/08/2019 21:07

Title says it all really. Amy has publicly disagreed with the detransitioners representing lesbians at Manchester pride and has been called out for being 'unsupportive' rather than a recognition she has a right to hold the views she does twitter.com/amydyess/status/1166114175367532545?s=21

Whilst I've been glad to see a public retraction from the 2 desisters and I am sure doing that Pride being booed this time will not have been easy I see Amy's point that if they are bi they don't speak for lesbians and in particular they shouldn't go from speaking for the trans movement to speaking for lesbians. I'm bi, my life experience is very different and considerably easier than being lesbian. As a bi woman I don't have the right to speak for lesbians and just as most of us here don't feel LibDems women can give away our rights and identity as women to transwomen neither bi nor lesbian women have the right to give away rights and identify as lesbian to anyone who is not.

Amy is principled and consistent so I do tend to stop and take notice when she's calling behaviours out.

There should be room for Amy's principled stance at the same time as feeling Charlie desisting publicly is encouraging. Why the need to convince Amy she's wrong?

OP posts:
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Pota2 · 28/08/2019 22:21

Technically though, political lesbians are women who choose not to have relationships with men and usually do not have relationships with women. I don’t think someone like Julie Bindel can really be described as a political lesbian, but Amy’s definition of the term is a lot wider than its traditional is. Julie says she decided to be a lesbian as a teenager and she has been in a relationship with her female partner for more than 30 years. Are her experiences really hugely different to those of ‘true lesbians’? Also, deciding not to date men is not the same as actually being attracted to men. So many women repress their feelings and date men because that is what they are told to do and what they think is normal. They might not have the courage to come out until later in their life. Are we calling them bi as well just because they at some point in their lives had a relationship or even marriage with a woman? Being in relationships with men is not always the same as being sexually attracted to them.

I wonder if men are held to this same test of ‘purity’. Elton John was married to a woman fgs. Are we saying he is not proper gay and should be classed as bi? Men who leave their female partners for men seem to be unilaterally accepted as gay from that point on. Women who have been in a same-sex relationship for many years however are told that they are not a real lesbian because they once dated a boy at the age of 17 and therefore cannot comprehend what life is like for real lesbians.

There are gay women across the world living in heterosexual marriages. It is a crime to be a lesbian in many countries. Some personalities are more easily swayed than others by social norms. Those who are naturally rebellious and confident may be unable to comprehend why someone felt unable to come out until later in life. They may feel that they would have been unable to suppress their sexuality and that this points to them being a ‘real’ as opposed to political lesbian. But I think it’s far more complex than that. Some people by nature will put the opinions of others ahead of their own feelings. I feel that Amy’s strict dividing lines exclude many lesbians by dismissing their experiences and saying that they have a choice to have relationships with men.

BalancingAct19 · 28/08/2019 22:48

So many women repress their feelings and date men because that is what they are told to do and what they think is normal. They might not have the courage to come out until later in their life. Are we calling them bi as well just because they at some point in their lives had a relationship or even marriage with a woman? Being in relationships with men is not always the same as being sexually attracted to them.

Absolutely, women who are only attracted to women are lesbians, regardless of how long it took them to accept their sexuality. Although I haven't been in that situation myself, I know lesbians who have tried to force themselves to be attracted to men, including marrying them, and that is a very different experience from being a bi woman who dated men because she was attracted to them.

2BthatUnnoticed · 28/08/2019 23:46

OP and Balancing solidarity to you both. I understand what you have both expressed (I think) and support you 💚💜

I think this whole thing must be exhausting for lesbians. You’ve got a right to feel how you feel.

HedgehogsRock · 29/08/2019 01:03

Charlie was invited to the march and I don't think that Amy should get to police this or be so aggressive and relentless in her comments. There is no point in this and we are all losers in this discussion.
I have no doubt that Amy is under incredibly high levels of stress and this is the way it has manifested itself, but it would be better if she could find another outlet rather than making those statements against Charlie and Julie.

Amy is now blocking many of the Tweeps who responded with comments she didn't like, which is very much the case of 'do as I say, not as I do'. I would always support feminist fighters like Amy and will continue to do so, but there really is no need for any of this shit. If she's feeing stressed, then I hope that she recovers soon and best wishes to her too.

Stopthisnow · 29/08/2019 01:04

the majority of children with gender dysphoria will desist if they go through their normal puberty and that a large majority of them will turn out to be lesbian or gay (which suggests to me that some kind of genetic and/or early socialisation effect is involved)

Many girls reject the female sex role when they are young and are nicknamed “tom boys”, they usually stop when they are teens and start dating boys, as to be “feminine” is more attractive to boys. Of course there is a lot of societal pressure on girls to date boys, and to fit in with their peers, and a lot of pressure on girls to adhere to feminine beauty practices when they are in their teens, so it is not surprising many start to conform more at that age. If a young woman continues to refuse to conform the female sex role, she will likely be called names or feel like she is different from the other girls, this will have an impact on how she views herself and how she makes sense of things. Of course not all lesbians were “tom boys” when small, some have always been been more “feminine”, though grow up to be no less lesbian.

Moreover, any child that does not adhere to sex role stereotypes are often called names that imply they are gay or lesbian by their peers, family and/or others in their environment. This will have an impact on how they view themselves and how they interpret their experiences, feelings etc. Now sex role non conforming behaviour is often seen not as a sign of being gay/lesbian, but as a sign of being trans, so of course a young person growing up in such an environment is likely to conclude they are trans, rather than gay/lesbian.

Being lesbian is to be exclusively attracted to women and not to be attracted to men.

I am not a political lesbian. I just don’t believe in “born this way” never have. I used to be bothered about whether political lesbians were exclusively attracted to women and whether they were attracted to men, I am not so bothered anymore. I have spoken to a few, they my not have the same experiences as those of us who are not political lesbians, but then many women don’t have the exact same experiences. As long as we talk to them about our concerns things can be resolved, at least in my experience, but then I am not one who subscribes to “born this way”. I eventually came to the conclusion that it doesn’t matter at the end of the day, as long as they are supporting lesbians, and are showing young lesbians they don’t need to change their bodies to love women, and are helping us enforce our boundaries to say no to men, that is all that matters to me.

I never feel like my experiences quite fit so I can’t really join in.

I think women sharing their experiences with each other in private groups can be a good thing, as long as it is done with mutual respect and empathy.

rollonautumndays · 29/08/2019 16:56

AllNaturalWoman I'm sorry if you're feeling bad.

I had to say something though as Amy's creating this out of nothing.

The reality is, this was a gender critical protest, not a lesbian-only-action. You can see on the GTLO flyers given out that day, and which were circulating online, it says "we are a group of lesbians AND ALLIES" (although, to be fair, most of them were lesbians).

Charlie was invited and held a banner saying "Gender ideology harms lesbians" with her 19 year old lesbian detrans friend, Thomasin in support of lesbians.

At no point did she speak for lesbians, or take a platform a lesbian may have done otherwise.

Amy has fabricated the narrative that Charlie was talking for lesbians and that she herself is a hero, standing up for lesbians with integrity, while being pretty nasty to a bunch of women in the process. But it's just bullshit. Only in Amy's head was it meant to be a lesbian-only protest.

She's creating drama over an issue that didn't even exist. She's said she's distancing herself from GC activism, so why is she commenting on it - other than for self serving reasons e.g. to get attention?

NotTerfNorCis · 17/05/2020 13:28

Amy Dyess is in Pink News now claiming that gender critical feminism is a cult that she's escaped.

I've noticed a lot of intense propaganda calling GC feminism a cult, just over the last few days.

OvaHere · 17/05/2020 13:41

Amy has been hugely xenophobic towards British women and quite frankly has no idea what she's talking about half of time.

Her grasp on UK politics and culture is pretty woeful - she doesn't seem to understand that it differs hugely from the US and nowhere in the UK is overrun with fundamentalist Christians funding everything. It's not really a big thing here.

From what I've seen on twitter over the last few years I would categorise Amy as someone with a number of vulnerabilities who is susceptible to love bombing. Her current love affair with TRA's won't necessarily last either.

SunsetBeetch · 17/05/2020 13:58

I'm sure this all happened. Oh yes.

In support of Amy Dyess
OvaHere · 17/05/2020 14:10

'Struggling movement'

HaHaHa

British women rock and we've made huge strides in the last couple of years. Hence all the legal challenges and withdrawal of dodgy guidance that's been going on.

Amy was planning a move to the UK last year because she was having some sort of long distance romance with a woman here. A number of women on Twitter gave her advice about good places to live etc...

It went wrong (for whatever reason) and she was quite bitter about it. I'm sure that hasn't fed the animosity towards British women at all.

Alloutofwool · 17/05/2020 14:12

I’ve seen a lot of ‘former gc’ members calling the movement a cult, and many other fun names. Apparently the gc movement is brainwashing innocent people and using them to progress their ‘Vile hate campaign’. 🙄🙄🙄. Even people I thought were fairly sensible have bought into this.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 17/05/2020 14:15

From what I've seen on twitter over the last few years I would categorise Amy as someone with a number of vulnerabilities who is susceptible to love bombing. Her current love affair with TRA's won't necessarily last either. this is my impression too plus she consistently posts in a remarkably angry/manipulative fashion (even for twitter Shock)

OvaHere · 17/05/2020 14:18

You get that with any type of movement or cause. Some people seek to be a part of something for reasons other than just what the cause is about.

Usually because they are looking for personal affirmation, somewhere to belong and any number of other reasons that have little to do with the activism itself.

Inevitably the community falls short of what they hoped to derive from it and a fallout ensues. Many will just move on to the next cause and repeat the same patterns.

None of the above has anything to do with the actual value of the activism at all.

NotTerfNorCis · 17/05/2020 14:22

Wondering if the 'cult' thing came from her or whether it was suggested to her. This is the third or fourth article I've seen in just the last few days claiming GC feminism is a cult. On the surface it looks like a reaction to feminists who've long referred to the 'trans cult'. But feminists did that because transactivism is irrational (you are what you believe you are, there are 100 genders) and because it's very dogmatic, persecuting non-believers and apostates (detransitioners). The same can't be said about GC feminism, which is based on biological reality and which never tries to get people thrown out of their jobs for wrongthink. So the TRAs making up a narrative about grooming, love-bombing, and hiding more obscure parts of GC belief until people are initiated - which makes it sound like scientology. (I'd like to know what these obscure beliefs are. Obviously I'm not in deep enough.)

OvaHere · 17/05/2020 14:48

I think it's just projection. They do this a lot. Regardless though there's only one cult encouraging minors and young people to remove healthy body parts and take dangerous medication and it's not British rad fems.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 17/05/2020 14:51

That was... Quite a read. So, this is Amy who wrote that entire research project into lesbians being sexually harrassed and assaulted by trans women? What, she thinks TWAW now? She thinks her own research project was right wing properganda? She made it up to be popular with GC Feminists? Or do I have the wrong person? All seems to be very confusing.

Anyway, at the end of the day even if everything she says is true, that the GC movement is just top to bottom packed with lying, abusive, controlling, love bombing, homophobic, alt right psychopaths... Humans still can't change sex. If all she says is true then that's terrible and she's right to have nothing more to do with it all... But humans still can't change sex. Even if every single atheist is a scum bag, that still doesn't prove that a god exists. So I'm not really sure what the point of the article was apart from broadcasting one person's unsubstantiated subjective opinion. But then that's about as good as Penis News journalism ever gets really, isn't it.

NotTerfNorCis · 17/05/2020 14:52

Well I've never heard GC feminists invite vulnerable young people to join their 'glitter family', or hide what they're doing from their parents by using a special button on a web page.

Datun · 17/05/2020 14:54

I think it's just projection

Indeed.

How is a 'cult' people trying to get our government, service providers, retailers, schools, police and charities to uphold laws which already exist? How is a 'cult', teenage girls pointing out the illegality of advice being given to schools? How is a 'cult' a group of lawyers and ex-cops successfully taking the police to court for over reach?

They can call it what they like. It doesn't stop the reality from happening.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 17/05/2020 15:09

freedomofmind.com/bite-model/

The BITE model of cult behaviours, in case anyone wants to compare and contrast GC vs TRA...

Clymene · 17/05/2020 15:11

Amy is clearly in the grip of a paranoid delusion as is perfectly clear in that article. Prick News should be ashamed of themselves. Then again, it does really highlight how laughable it is that they can call themselves journalists.

WhereYouLeftIt · 17/05/2020 15:22

"I've noticed a lot of intense propaganda calling GC feminism a cult, just over the last few days."
That's very interesting. Every time the TRAs move to a new tactic, it's because the last tactic is no longer working. They must be about out of tactics by now.

NotTerfNorCis · 17/05/2020 15:51

A couple of other recent articles on the 'cult' allegation.

Deviant Lesbian

medium.com/@deviantlesbian/play-nicely-cbbab85408c7

I have never regretted slamming the door on gender critical feminism. It is a gateway to radicalisation; around the time I was leaving I called it a cult (they didn’t like that very much). It is a cult, and much like anyone who leaves a cult — you realise that the only way to escape it is to cut all ties entirely.

Rhys MacKavanagh

rhysmckavblog.wordpress.com/2020/05/14/and-he-stoppeth-one-of-three/

I think you [Katy Montgomerie] instead chose to put that aside to see me as a person escaping a very toxic cult-like environment. Your suggestion that this online GC movement was a lot like a cult was confirmation of a question I had been asking myself privately for a very long time.

A tweet from Katy Montgomerie :
twitter.com/KatyMontgomerie/status/1243206795822276609

Well done. It's hard to get out of cults and important to offer people a lifeline. I have done a lot of research into the BITE model and cults. Being LGBT is not one, being GC is

As ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings posted upthread, the BITE model is here: freedomofmind.com/bite-model/

Behavioural control includes deprivation of food and sleep, financial control, requiring you to seek permission for big decisions etc. Information control means withholding information, extensive use of propaganda, gaslighting, reporting on others for misconduct etc. Thought control involves changing your identity, possibly even your name; teaching thought-stopping techniques; rejecting critical thinking; using loaded language to stop critical thought; instilling good versus evil thinking. Emotional control is defined as instilling irrational fears, love-bombing, teaching guilt for wrongthink, threatening friends and family, shunning unbelievers, teaching that some emotions/reactions are evil etc.

'Behavioural control' is less relevant here because it implies the person is physically under the control of the cult. But the other categories? I know which of GC feminism and transactivism would emerge as more cult-like.

SunsetBeetch · 17/05/2020 17:23

Oh, Amy...

In support of Amy Dyess
In support of Amy Dyess
NotTerfNorCis · 17/05/2020 17:29

twitter.com/CChinneide/status/1262039958946295808?s=19

I don’t think she’s a reformed character. She’s speaking out about the harm the terf cult caused her, which is bad, but she hasn’t yet taken responsibility for all the harm she caused trans people or apologised for it. I’m suspicious her decision to speak out is self serving.

Quite a few demanding a grovelling apology.

OvaHere · 17/05/2020 17:30

They're really hung up on the idea that we have leaders. It's just not true - we have prominent voices, people who are more well known and influential than others but that's really not the same thing.

The fact that some of us disagree with others from time to time is entirely normal.