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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender policies could alter after hormone research The Times 23 Aug 2019

35 replies

AnotherNightWatering · 23/08/2019 17:26

"Rugby and other sports may have to reassess their policies on transgender players after evidence has emerged that muscle strength stays relatively high after hormone treatment, according to a scientific consultant for World Rugby."

I still can't get a share token! But the story's here...
www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/transgender-policies-could-alter-after-hormone-research-hwbkb9wzd

OP posts:
FormerMediocreMale · 25/08/2019 13:23

Thanks 1994

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 26/08/2019 11:15

Yes, hormone treatment has little impact on muscle density and I'm glad research is being done to show what everyone already knows.

However, when it comes to contact sports like rugby another big issue is bone density. I would like to see research on that because XY trans people are not just taking hormones to reduce testosterone but in some cases are taking artificial oestrogen.

In women oestrogen is used as HRT post menopause because oestrogen protects bone density. We know this. There is no reason whatsoever to think it does not also preserve the greater bone density of men.

Although men lose bone density at a lower rate than women, they do lose bone density as they age. Given this I am not convinced men who take artificial oestrogen should even be allowed to compete against other men, particularly in senior events, when it comes to contact sport and I'm always surprised this issue is rarely mentioned.

MrGHardy · 26/08/2019 14:59

quixote

No I am not. As I said, this advantage is a counterfactual, I.e. something you can never know. You can measure these things yes you can compare the size distributions of these yes, but you will never know what the size of these organs would have been, had that person not gone through male puberty. At best you could say their height makes them 75% percentile for men, 75% percentile for women is X. But you can't actually know what the real value would have been.

mement0mori · 29/08/2019 13:45

There's a bit more about this in the Times today in the sport section.

Here

mement0mori · 29/08/2019 13:49

Here

Transgender policies could alter after hormone research The Times 23 Aug 2019
AnotherNightWatering · 29/08/2019 13:50

I'd just started a new thread today's Times story here, as it's about a different bit of research Smile :
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3678277-Karolinska-Institute-transwomen-retain-muscle-strength-Times-29-8-2019

OP posts:
mement0mori · 29/08/2019 13:53

Oh sorry AnotherNight, I did check but I must have cross posted with you :)

BatShite · 30/08/2019 11:11

"I do feel guilty, but what can you do?" she says. "I don't go out to hurt anybody. I just want to play rugby."

Ugh, sick of this shite being peddled out. Noone is trying to stop you playing sports. Just, play on the correct team for your sex, thats all. Mind I guess many of these mediocre males, if not allowed in the womens comps, would not play at all as they arent good enough to qualify for the mens..oddly.

MrGHardy · 30/08/2019 11:20

"I do feel guilty, but what can you do?" she says. "I don't go out to hurt anybody. I just want to play rugby."

Yes, this is such manipulative shit. Sickening. They don't feel guilty at all.

ChattyLion · 02/09/2019 06:31

Surely there must be a rule that if any player has an involuntary or voluntary reason by which they keep hurting the other players, then that player should be taken off the team. End of story. (And that would be equally applicable to a man playing on a mans team so not a discrimination issue)

As it happens there is a very simple solution to this particular situation, that the player joins the appropriate team for their sex, the men’s team. However even if there isn’t a suitable team for a player, then that is just hard luck, they can’t stay on the team voluntarily or involuntarily causing harm to the other players, however much they might ‘just want to play rugby’.

‘Single-gender’ sports teams are clearly unfair and dangerous to women players because of male biology which arises from sex difference. That bigger heavier taller stronger Male biology isn’t just about specific hormone levels which could be changed. That physical relative advantage just is what it is and it can’t ever be changed. It’s dangerous for official rugby powers-that-be to choose to keep pretending. and Its the opposite of inclusive to choose to include players who you know will hurt other players and who willl cause other players to not play at all, for their own safety.

It’s also deceptive and manipulative gaslighting and an undermining of consent norms, to present risks to players as being within the normal expected range of risks, when actually the powers-that-be already know that the risks in this scenario are much greater than in the normal expected range.

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