Why I became an evil TERF: Penny White

[Patnotpending]

I came across this video after a GC friend sent me the link and I'm going to play the first few minutes of it on my laptop when I go to see my MP next week. I wondered whether it might be useful to others.

It's straightforward and funny and common sense:

You have absolutely no idea whatsoever that any of what you have posted applies to Penny White.

Dismissing her because of it is no less stupid and misogynist than it would be if you dismissed her for her physical appearance, or size, or ethnicity/nationality.

Is it not allowed to say we don't like someone's voice if that person is a woman? I don't like her voice. I don't want to listen to it. I like forceful voices.

I like forceful voices.

It can go both ways -- maybe you like forceful voices because males speak forcefully and you have been taught that males are the only ones worth listening too, and soft-voiced females are weak and worth less?

I'm not saying that this is the case but picking and choosing between soft and forceful voices because they are soft or forceful does seem a bit odd.
Surely softness and gentleness are as worthy of attention as forcefulness.
There are some voices I can't stand: there was one transperson who did a very affected youtube which was posted on MN some time ago. I couldn't stand that voice; not THAT was affected. Some accents I intensely dislike. Glottal stops get on my nerves.

You have absolutely no idea whatsoever that any of what you have posted applies to Penny White. No, I don't. But I do know other women who use that voice... and every one of them has a similar reason for doing so... appeasing an adult, a male! Playing up to stereotyoes, not being strident or loud to do so. So, regardless of her personal reasons for adopting it it does represent a certain kind of behaviour for many people!

As I said, try it out... it is not a comfortable way to speak, it is forced, unnatural, a learned behaviour... and we really should be looking at the reasons behind such choices if we are serious about rooting out ALL issues stemming from a patriarchal society!

And I didn't dismiss her mesage because of it... it was just a bit hard to stick with due to it being like nails on a blackboard, as far as I am concerned.

Is it not allowed to say we don't like someone's voice if that person is a woman? Ah yes! The stick with which to beat us... woman, be nice to woman, even if it hurts your ears and offends your sense of dignity!

I don't like it. I don't like the usual reasons behind it. I don't like the stereotypical image it repsresents and reinforces. I feel sorry for any woman who grows up with it as her usual speaking voice as I detest what often lays behind it.

But I do know other women who use that voice... and every one of them has a similar reason for doing so... appeasing an adult, a male! Playing up to stereotyoes, not being strident or loud to do so. So, regardless of her personal reasons for adopting it it does represent a certain kind of behaviour for many people!

I am extremely soft-spoken. I do not have it in me to be strident or loud. As a result, when speaking in the company of males, whether in a private or professional environment, I am regularly interrupted and some loudmouthed man (usually; but some women also do this) barge in and take over the conversation.

Also, I tend to wait politely until someone has finished speaking even if I have something important to say that contradicts what they are saying, before I put in my own argument. But invariably, some male interrupts instead, cuts the other speaker off, and I don't get the chance to say my bit. This is annoying. The answer might be to become loud and strident myself and do the interrupting before anyone else. But how would that help?

BTW I don't think I have "that voice", but my voice IS very quiet. But I was not raised to speak quietly. It's just the way I am. My mother was an extremely prominent and outspoken feminist even back in the 50s. famous in my home country. After she died I found umpteen photos of her in an official function, the only women in a pack of men, looking very confident and calm. People always listened to her, and she had a commanding voice. I don't, but certainly not because of my upbringing (Mum was a single mother, one of the first in my country, and Dad did not raise me at all).

So you too are saying you find it hard to listen to women who speak quietly, because they represent a stereotype. What a way to marginalise such women yet more! My advice is, LISTEN to them. They often have something worthwhile to say. Don't let a soft voice dilute or obliterate the message -- that's what men traditionally do.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with soft voices; if it gets on your nerves like chalk on a blackboard, maybe it's time to ask why; why do you want women with important things to say (like this one in the video) to be as strident and loud as men have been conditioned to be. Why are some of us impatient with female stereotypes (soft, gentle, polite) but not with male ones (loud, strident, rude)?

I'm actually the other way around. If someone interrupts a conversation with some loud, long comment of their own I stop listening. Sorry this post was so long. It just turned out that way.

CuriousaboutSamphire You have absolutely no idea whether your scenario applies to Penny White or any other softly spoken woman.

Your posts are sweeping generalisations to back up your own invented narrative as to why someone might speak like that.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with soft voices; if it gets on your nerves like chalk on a blackboard, maybe it's time to askwhy; why do you want women with important things to say (like this one in the video) to be as strident and loud as men have been conditioned to be. Why are some of us impatient with female stereotypes (soft, gentle, polite) but not with male ones (loud, strident, rude)?

Good points.

Her words are powerful. Her voice is soft.

"I don't like her voice" is a distraction, not a counter-argument.

A soft voice can be very forceful in getting an argument across. It can disarm the listener. I didn't like the repetitive way she made points but that is also a style of presenting an argument which may work on some listeners. A very strident voice turns me off listening to what is being said.

The late unlamented Ian Paisley was strident and forceful - does CuriousaboutSamphire think women should adopt his style? Or that of any of the countless, tedious ranty, left blokes,?

And regardless of what you think of him or his views Jordan Peterson is phenomenally successful- he is very softly spoken too.

So you too are saying you find it hard to listen to women who speak quietly, because they represent a stereotype No, I am not. I am saying that the childish edge, the little squeak, the almost but not quite lisp is. Please don't mis represent what I said. I said nothing about soft voices at all!

Nor did I say that strident would be good, or that women should adopt that, why the fuck should we?

I didn't even say I was ignoring the content of her speech, quite the opposite. But I suppose if you wish only to show me the error of my ways - oddly by using your own interpretation and like / dislike of what I said /other tones of voice, whilst deploring my own personal filters - go for it!

But at least have the common decency to acknowledge the fact that you are responding to my written tone in the same way I am responding to her spoken tone! What makes my response more unpalateable than yours? Both appear to decry the individual choice of another woman...

As Juells pointed out, you are denying women a choice.. unless you are the woman and yours is the choice... it seems!

My (British) friend has a voice like that, she doesn't like it herself but it's her natural voice. She's a feminist, strong woman who takes no shite!

AsJuellspointed out, you are denying women a choice.. unless you are the woman and yours is the choice... it seems!

Nobody is denying women a choice apart from you who is insisting the scenario playing out in your head must apply to all and every women.

Really? OK... if you say so. I know I said nothing of the sort and if you wish to disregard my point, fine, that's your prerogative.

But somehwere in her childhood she, like many other women who use that tone, were told to shut up and be nice and/or found that wheedling got them what they wanted.

But I do know other women who use that voice... and every one of them has a similar reason for doing so... appeasing an adult, a male! Playing up to stereotyoes, not being strident or loud to do so. So, regardless of her personal reasons for adopting it it does represent a certain kind of behaviour for many people!a

The psychoanalysis, whether for a "soft" voice or a "whiny" voice, is what I objected to. Did you personally interview all these women and found out that they have been coached to speak that way so as to placate men? It just seems a strange thing to know about "every one of them".

CuriousaboutSamphire
The problem with those 'little girl' voices is that they pomote the stereotypical idea of women as weak and whiny

You might want to examine your own prejudices. Penny White did not strike me as either weak or whiny.

You on the other hand are coming across as very superior, very "I know better than other women" and very keen on criticising other women.

But I do know other women who use that voice... and every one of them has a similar reason for doing so

Really? You interviewed every single one of them? And they all opened up and revealed their personal history to you?

Crossposted with Marguerite!

But she isn't wheedling at all. She has a fairly high-pitched, squeaky kind of voice but not a wheedling way of talking. She's quite calm and sardonic.

Megan Mullally has a similar voice

Megan Mullally's voice is completely different.

Listened to a few seconds of the video in the OP again, and it isn't as bad as I thought, initially. Still wouldn't listen to a whole video of someone speaking with that voice, though.

Thanks for posting this OP. I liked her comments. Particularly the bit about ‘pregnant people’ being the ‘All Lives Matter’ of reproductive politics.

But what an unpleasant thread this turned into.

I grew up in an extremely frightening and threatening home where any dissent led to immediate violent threats. I have a high voice. I agree there may well be a connection - adverse childhood experiences influence the personality in fundamental ways, and that is often reflected in voice. But when I go to a meeting, and express my view, I expect people to focus on what that view is, not on what may or may not have happened in my past to influence my vocal range. The possibility that they might be doing just that is really depressing. It suggests those of us who have encountered abuse in the past will be judged for it in the present, and our lives speculated about in a way we have not invited.

It’s fine to hate abuse. But we should listen to what women have to say, and not discount them or their message because of presentation that may (or may not!) indicate an abusive past experience. (Plenty of women do just have high voices, after all.)

Megan Mulally has a horribly nasal voice. I’d far rather listen to Penny White!

This thread has made me think about how shallow it is not listen to what someone is saying just because of their tone of voice.

I include my own prejudice against strident, ranting voices (although in my defence the likes of Ian Paisley or Martin McGuinness at full throttle are physically painful to listen to)

It's not about being softly spoken, it's the squeakiness of the voice I find difficult to listen to. Perhaps I have a hearing disorder that means the pitch causes me discomfort. However the slow slow getting to the point then repeating the point as mentioned above turned me off. It's nothing to do with the message, just the delivery didn't work for me. Sorry if that offends anyone.

This thread has made me think about how shallow it is not listen to what someone is saying just because of their tone of voice.

You do you, and I'll do me.

I'm tired of people saying "Woman, be nice". I'll be however the fuck I want to be.

You might want to examine your own prejudices. Penny White did not strike me as either weak or whiny. You could rexamine what I did actually popst! I didn't say anything about PEnny White bein weak or whiny. I said her voice is!

And as for 'interviewing all those women' I am guessing you have never heard of talking to friends??!! I have friends who use that voice and yes, over the years the subject has come up and they have 'opened up and revealed their personal history' to me. Mainly because I am a good listener and they like me! Context? Well, for years I had no indoor voice, came from too many years of lecturing, unamplified, in big lecture theatres (one topic was psychology ) We have often discussed voices, softness, loudness, losing them etc! Occupational hazard!