BBC Radio Kent now - women's sport

[bettybeans]

www.bbc.co.uk/radiokent

Some guy called Robbie who is Director of Sport for Stonewall is on just now. Nicola from Fairplay just finished a few mins ago.

Well done Nicola on staying cool when ask to cite references on the spot! I can't think of any time in academia I've been asked to do that, it's a pretty tough line of questioning.

In some ways it's good because facts hold up well in contrast to the "oh can't you just be nice" arguments but yeah, who can really cite references on the spot like that? She has asked difficult questions of both sides, with that said. Discussion still ongoing.

Agreed it's good to have that list of evidence shared for the general public, but really the interested listener could do their own additional reading around the subject. It's hypocritical though for Julia to say MacKinnon has received loads of hate messages without providing supporting evidence of their existence, whilst accusing a non-expert who's taken time out of her schedule to dial in of a lack of evidence because she can't cite FloJo's winning time. Imo the level of rigour demanded of each side was disparate, but at least it was heartening to see something approaching a consensus from everyone and acknowledgement that there is a conflict of rights.

That was interesting.

Dr Nic got the hardest time I think, but was solid, as ever, under pressure. I think the presenter was wary of being labelled a te*f.

Well done Alice! Brave! You put your points across well.

I loved the way Richard, the endocrinologist, listed off a whole range of advantages men have, but seemed very wary of saying it was unfair for trans women to play. Trans lobby is a scary bunch eh?

I think it reached the conclusion that this is a debate about fairness verses inclusivity, I really think it is.

Fair must win

Fair must win

I actually disagree with that, I think. And whatever, it’s easy to see that AWS are not fair. They are attempting through an unfair means to correct another unfairness. Think perhaps the problem is that fairness is like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

I might think it’s unfair because of phyiscal advantages that transwomen compete with women. Transwomen might think it’s unfair that they can’t compete at all becuase they have a problem being male and women won’t have them either.

, framing the problem as either transwomen or women must win is to me wrong. If transpeople feel that they can’t compete in their sex category because of whatever, then it should be possible to create a suitable category for them. Since they are weaker than normal men due to medication, we could argue it’s a long term chronic health issue and make more catagories within the para sports.

Mldgebabe - what about transwomen competing in male sports but having a reverse handicap - for example in running, they get one second taken off their time, and this is then considered to be their time for the purpose of medals etc. This will of course never happen because it might mean a man who won gold now finds he has won silver instead. Of course that wouldn't be fair would it.....................

As I see it, life isn’t perfect. If you try to do something impossible- like change sex - there are going to be issues - BECAUSE it’s impossible.. But harsh as it sounds, they’re your issues. “Well, biologically I’m a man, so if I transition I’ll never actually be female. So it’s not on for me to compete against women”. Accept that your life just can’t be perfect, in the same way that lifetime medication is not perfect either. I say take responsibility for your issues, don’t expect everyone else to collude in a delusion (that changing sex is possible) and sacrifice themselves to make your life perfect.

Robbie from Stonewall was hopeless. Seemed to know nothing, even the interviewer was pointing out that using himself as the single example he could give of women beating men wasn't very scientific.

WE tend not to use handicap system. WE tend t have different classes. SO it’s just being consistent.

Robbie from Stonewall was hopeless

Yes and they are the "experts" advising sports organisations on policy. Get some evidence to support your assertion or get out of the conversation. You would have thought sporting bodies might have opted to seek advise from medical professionals rather than a lobby group that has fuck all to do with sports, but there we have it.

"Yes and they are the "experts" advising sports organisations on policy."

Not just sports, but councils, NHS, schools, police - the list is never ending.
I came to this forum because of the McKinnon thing and because I am 100% GC, and although I am a bloke I fully support the feminists.
Stonewall and all the other TRA friendly groups never provide any scientific facts, in fact they reject them, saying that the World has moved on.
They are trying (and succeeding in many cases) to convince everyone that philosophy and social constructs outweigh biology.
We are living in a very dangerous World.

Since they are weaker than normal men due to medication, we could argue it’s a long term chronic health issue

But is it? All elite athletes have to make the choice between drugs to alleviate XYZ condition, or competing. Not just with short-term conditions, like decongestant for a cold, but also for lifelong 'chronic' conditions like asthma. How is taking cross-sex hormones or hormone suppressants any different?

Personally, I think requiring an athlete to make a body-modification in order to compete is unethical. Would an athlete with polydactyly be required to amputate their extra digits in order to play? So why should a male be required to reduce his testosterone? Males should simply be barred from playing in female sections. Testosterone is not the sole difference between makes and females.