Spinster, should it be women only or women and allies?

[sueanddumplings]

I noticed that there's a screen grab doing the rounds on social media of Debbie Hayton being given a frosty reception after joining because she is 'not a woman'. Do others think the site should be women only or women and allies?

I think Spinster needs to be as open as possible, just with non-anti-women moderating rules like Twitter.

You can choose who you engage with on any SM platform.

There are pros and cons of including men imo:

Pros
If anyone can join then the conversation reaches more people.

Cons
Men tend to dominate whenever they are included.

Women due to socialisation tend to defer to men if they are present.

Women don’t really have sites that are just for women only (except a few closed facebook groups). Where as there are already sites where both men and women can post.

I suppose it depends on what you see the purpose of the space for: if one sees it as a way to raise awareness among others who are not necessarily women/feminists, than you will likely think it should be open to all. Where as if you would like to be able to talk to other women/feminists, without all the “what about the men”, “what about the ‘real’ transsexuals” etc, then you would likely prefer it to be female only.

Personally, I would prefer to have a site that is strictly female only, that would be very difficult to practically enforce though. Moreover, the website has said that men can join, so I think it will continue to include them. I think Lang’s idea is probably the most practical tbh.

I've been confirmed but every time I try to login it tells me my account is still under review. Will keep trying.

Women don’t really have sites that are just for women only (except a few closed facebook groups).

Spinster is looking at setting up the function for creating groups. But they need to ensure the resilience of the system first.

I think men should be allowed. I'd be very welcoming to male allies, and it will be good for the Misogynists to have to debate women without slurs and without women getting banned for stating facts.

I've found the piling on at male allies recently extremely tiresome and unedifying.

I like a site where you can block the mansplainers and misogynists. IF they haven't said anything new in over 50 years they aren't going to start on Spinster.
I am sorry that Hayton's wife has had another women's space closed to her.

I keep meaning to sign up but I'm really rubbish at picking usernames. I want it to be something that represents "me" but not anything I've used anywhere else, just in case of any doxxing issues. At some point I'll stop obsessing/procrastinating & just pick something random.

BiologyNotBigotry oh God, me too. Other people pick such clever, witty ones. I have NO imagination. None.

I ended up using a random name generator for my current UN, I'm so bad at it.

Quite honestly it doesn't matter what any of us think as the woman paying for the forum (which we get for free) has set the rules she wants.

Quite honestly the women who made a fuss about the fact that some men had joined, and then membership was closed because they had so many, but said it would open again, actually looked really silly and petty for complaining. And the fact that some then ganged up on Glinner who then left, just made it seem like all the pathetic point scoring of twitter was seeping into spinster.

Also, on another thread I posted a link to a Meghan Murphy post on spinster but then realised it was inappropriate because if she wanted it public she would have put it somewhere public.

so yes you can post spinster links, but it might make it a more supportive space if women posting there weren't thinking, of shit someone is going to come and long and post the link to it.

So how spinster works will in the end be down to those of us using it.

I am not finding it that positive experience because some just cant give up on their back biting and twitter wars. And dont think I really ever thought that women getting the opportunity to express their opinions would then post something like they were glad a policeman had been dragged to his death.

I have no problem with men joining the discussion. I have no problem with transactivists joining. What matters is that women will not be silenced and banned. If people get abusive that will be dealt with but discussions are good.

False alarm, Spinster's back up and running again now.

Spinster has been under attack since day one.

Again, the site mission:

Spinster is a woman-centric website created to provide a platform for feminist dialogue.

So perhaps the men who have decided to become early adopters, rather than waiting until women have set the tone, would be wise to do a lot more listening than speaking?!

That there are women arguing about whether or not men should be there seems to me to be irrefutable evidence that they should have held off until the forming, storming, norming, performing process was complete.

Just because you can doesn't mean that you should.

(And I say this as somewhat of a devil's advocate because I am personally quite happy talking to men and am in many mixed sex groups on other platforms.)

I agree completely with @LangCleg and have said so on the site.

Try telling the men they shouldn't be there. The ones who push back. They definitely shouldn't be. The ones who say "oh ok and sod off" they are better. But they still shouldn't be there.

Women who want them there. Not sure why. It's ok not to have men around you occasionally. They won't stop your dinner money.

@stumbledin I haven't seen any "twitter wars" there at all. Debating stuff is all I've seen. And women a bit giddy at being able to speak freely

No one bullied any men. Saying they shouldn't be there is the personal opinion of many women and fine to say.

They won't stop your dinner money.

This made me laugh because in our house, I'm the tightwad and the #notmynigel is the spendthrift. I actually do give him dinner money. Oops!

I am not finding it that positive experience because some just cant give up on their back biting and twitter wars. And dont think I really ever thought that women getting the opportunity to express their opinions would then post something like they were glad a policeman had been dragged to his death.*

You what?!

I am on spinster and think it is great that women's voices are being lifted up.
I was amazed at the men who crashed in to the site early doors even when they knew that it was restricted due to server issues but I also think that men on there would not necessarily be a bad thing - pretty sure that there are a few 'women' on there anyway.
For me it is just great that there is a place where bio truth can be spoken without censure and that is really all that matters to me. You only realise how much twitter and mumsnet has restricted women's free speech when you no longer have to dance on the head of a pin to state simple facts. Liberating!

Its also liberating to speak away from men. It's a political act. I know they can see us .... but if they can't respond.... or offer their input ... it's good for us and it's also good for them to learn to acknowledge some boundaries around women. Then even those who are supportive understand a little ... just a smidgen of what women are taking about. It's good that men learn that women don't have to engage with them or be grateful to them. Etc etc

@Jeanhatchet - there are some women who seem to focus their posts on what is or is not being said on twitter, and / or asking others to counteract something said on twitter.

Why? Who cares? I know some women got entangled in what is basically a cul de sac but the in fact mainstream media saying twitter was important, but in fact it is the least used social media platform. And although it is true lazy journalists hand pick some tweets to spin a news story they never pick on women's voices, so the suggestion that somehow it is necessary to country the male voice on twitter is, if anything, a male plot to tie women up in a pointless time consuming negative waste of time.

As has been said it is a bit like saying I really want to reach out to other women in my local town, so I think where would I do that, and decide perversely to go to the sleaziest bar in town which is known to be the hang of unreconstructed male chauvanists. All that time in this cess pit when I could have been out meeting women in (without being cliched) places I am more likely to find women, whether the supermarket, the school gates, or local play group.

And these twitter obsessives are dragging down some (not all) of the exchanges on spinster. They need to sign up to twitter anonymous and do a detox instead of contaminating this new fresh woman focused space with the male focused twitter one up(wo)manship.

And I still think wasting energy on whether some men where early signers up is such a none issue. Just ignore them or if they are breaking the conduct of spinster report them. The irony is they where all going on about focusing men, but they were the ones doing it. Nobody else bothered. In putting our trust (by signing up) to spinster it was obvious they would create more capacity if needed. It just looked like pathetic grandstanding to "impress" other women. Sigh.

I am in fact a separatist, but also a realist.

Now if you and all the other women who think there should be a women only social media platform then you are either going to have to fund raise or find an equally rich benefactoress as the woman who has paid for spinster.

PollyTheDolly

I am still grabbling with whether Spinster is in fact going to offer more than being on facebook with "friends" and being on mumsnet where I come in contact with a wider circle of women.

But as far as I can see to begin with I have to scan through every new post (unforutnatley called a "gab") to see who is on Spinster and what are they saying.

And in doing this I saw one new spinster do her first post say hi, its wonderful what shall I post. And the next thing was to say she was glad the policeman had been killed.

I haven't been back since, but know some Resister groups are on there so may just decide to follow groups and not bother to participate.

(There are some times cute pictures of kittens - which I like - but not sure it is deeply enriching my knowledge of issues currently facing women!)

Sorry for typos in posts. Typing in haste while waiting for a rain shower to pass. Sun now back so I am off out.