"Mumsnet, of all places"

[FrauRogacki]

Came across this article published on overland, which is a progressive literary magazine based in Mellbourne. The author refers patronisingly to 'Mumsnet, of all places' as a hotbed of gender critical activity.

overland.org.au/2019/05/what-is-gender-critical-anyway-on-essentialism-and-transphobia

Yes some of the comments pick up on the fact that the argument is flawed. It's discouraging because the one place in Australia you might expect some discussion before rushing full steam ahead into self ID and is Melbourne, and yet it feels like a total no-go zone.

53rdWay
Damn it, you are so right.

Pregnancy books should begin with the statement "Women, welcome to the real world".

That’s a poor article.

I tell you who should be going back in history, and that the author. She needs to go back to the 18th century and have a look at what Hume had to say about the is-ought problem.

Feminists (and I agree with her that the “gender critical” tag is a tautology, actually, but not for the reason she supposes) are making observations about what “is” - the material, biological reality of being female. Gender essentialism proposes that there is an “ought” that attaches to these facts of biology - you’re a woman, therefore you ought to be nurturing, you’re a man, therefore you ought not to cry. Feminists have for donkeys fucking years been arguing that you cannot and should not use the “is” of biology to argue for the “ought” of gender/ sex role stereotypes.

She’s got it all arse about face.

I'm astounded at how completely wrong the author has got it. Just mind-boggling!

It's just the 'progressive' lefty version of the old right-wing "Feminists are man-hating dungaree-wearers who think all sex is rape!" shit. At least that lot never pretended they were the real feminists, I suppose?

Gender essentialism is the idea that there is an innate, immutable ‘womanness’ or ‘manness’ which expresses itself in what we consider ‘femininity’ or ‘masculinity’. It posits, for example, that women as a group are naturally more caring and empathetic and men as a group are more aggressive and clever, and – crucially – that these gendered qualities exist inherently, without societal influence.

Well. She's certainly convinced me she's not the sharpest tool in the shed; those are the transactivist arguments, not the gender critical ones.

Bimbo.

A bit further south than Melbourne, perhaps cooler heads will prevail?

Ugh. I've been published in Overland - they used to focus on interesting literature. Objectively, it's a poorly written article, regardless of topic.

I really dislike the NZ brand of misogyny towards GC women - it's very personal and poisonous and directed at a small handful of women who are easily identified, and who have been shunned and attacked mercilessly by their own community, and politicians.

Love the comments though.

Great post Badger

I have to say, this is the only silver lining I've ever discovered to the housing problem in Sydney - I think the young (mine included) are so busy making sure they can get a damn job that pays enough to rent somewhere (house prices here are insane) that they just don't have as much time as their Melburnian peers for this woke fuckery.

I hate the way I - have never voted further right than the centre-left in my life - now shudder at the word 'progressives'.

We're basically f*cked. My state Extinction Rebelllion group broke down the middle because some middle class white girl with too much time on her hands complained about a picture of another middle class white girl who had committed the crime of wearing dreads.

Everyone not in the mood for a struggle session over nonsense left or was kicked out.

We're on the Titantic, and as it's going down, people are arguing the most important issues of our time, apparently - hair styles and pronouns.

Sorry, that got a bit off topic!

DancelikeEmmaGoldman
The Victorian Women’s Guild is a new organisation speaking for women’s rights. Their event from last Thursday is available on their FB page and YouTube.

My friend went to one of the VWG events, I'll ask her the details.

The current VIC labour government worries me in a lot of ways, they are quite woke and won a greater majority of seats last year, pushing this through doesn't surprise me at all. Our premier calls people who disagree 'bigots' and announced new anti conversion therapy laws early this year
"Conversion ‘therapy’ is any practice or treatment that seeks to change, suppress or eliminate an individual’s sexual orientation or gender identity."

Why, of why, is sexual orientation linked with gender identity in these laws ?!!

What a shitty article.

I know Janes
They can't even define or quantify gender identity but there it is, protected in law...

It's in Federal legislation too - see the amended Sex Discrimination Act, 5B:

www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2018C00499

Yes, I think you're onto something there JanesKettle because there does seem to be a difference. I think the activists here (Sydney) are more climate motivated.

I admit I was reluctant to comment too much due to possible accusations of Sydney vs Melbourne rivalry. Although I'm happy to give props to Melbourne because they do have some academics/feminists speaking out (Clementine Ford as always avoiding comment to protect her book sales). I wonder if the difference is also due to opposing parties in each states government?

What I'm starting to notice - and I'm sure I am very late to the party here - is that the so called progressive left can be just as misogynistic an eye-eyed as the right. In the fact that none of them are calling out the changes to sport, none of them are saying anything about these changes to legislation. It's like no one with any kind of profile wants to put their neck out in Melbourne/Sydney (apart from the ones mentioned above).

And yes badger great post it was cathartic to read because you got right to the heart of it.

And that is terrible about your Extinction Rebellion group Jane'sKettle.

*one-eyed, not eye-eyed FFS

What I'm starting to notice - and I'm sure I am very late to the party here - is that the so called progressive left can be just as misogynistic an eye-eyed as the right.

The first wave of feminism came out of the Abolitionism movement and the second wave came out of the Civil Rights movement, in both cases the women got disgruntled with the parallels between black rights and women's rights not being recognised and addressed.

What makes TERF ideology reactionary rather than radical is its dedication to binary gender essentialism. The concept of gender essentialism is practically timeless, and reaction to it is key to understanding why feminist theory exists in the first place. Gender essentialism is the idea that there is an innate, immutable ‘womanness’ or ‘manness’ which expresses itself in what we consider ‘femininity’ or ‘masculinity’.

If he knew he had that back to front, would he change his mind?

CountFosco that is fascinating. Who could have predicted this though - it's something else entirely. Just gave my mother a rundown yesterday, she was all in blind favour of the TRA arguments but when I explained to her some of the nuances she said she was going to do some reading.....

It’s a nonsense article, but some of the comments are brilliant. I love the fact he’s mentioned Mumsnet, because we’ll get the usual lurkers, drawn by the mention of how transphobic all the ‘terfs’ are on here. waves to new lurkers There are going to be more peakers, once they realise what’s happening in the shadows.

True, that we are also doing things IRL and yes, the a...holes should be afraid. Due to Trump and this TWAW nonsense, more and more women are getting involved in politics but on grass root, municipal and governmental levels.

I have made a conscious effort to be more feministic. I put up stickers with the definition of the word "Woman" in two of the countries we visited this summer as I had gotten aware that they are starting to go on the same idiotic route as Britain with respect to TWAW. I watched some of the programs related to the Women's World Cup just to be feministic and found out that it was a lot more interesting to listen to female athletes and female sport reporters that to listen to their male counterparts, so will be doing more of that. I have been talking with relatives about the TWAW ideology and why it harms women. I donated clothes to a women's shelter. These are all small gestures, but if we all did some more small feministic gestures, it would make a difference in the end.

May I just remind everybody that the women shelters in Britain are woefully underfunded.

It’s a nonsense article, but some of the comments are brilliant. I love the fact he’s mentioned Mumsnet, because we’ll get the usual lurkers, drawn by the mention of how transphobic all the ‘terfs’ are on here. waves to new lurkers There are going to be more peakers, once they realise what’s happening in the shadows.

Oh yes indeed.

You see, to younger, wolker folks, older women are basically their moms and therefore barely people. I mean yeah they love them and all, but they aren’t like separate individuals with opinions. And if they do have them it’s likely about what to have for dinner or whatever...

People don’t really see their own parents as fully human until we’ll into adulthood (if at all). I know I didn’t get it for far too long.