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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thank you for all being awesome

20 replies

AnotherAdultHumanFemale · 09/08/2019 17:44

Firstly I just want to say a massive thank you to all of you brilliant, intelligent, inspiring women who are fighting to protect the rights of women and children. I am so in awe of people like Julie Bindel who has been speaking up against this ideology for years, and all of the more recent voices who have spoken up in recent times. It doesn't surprise me that it is British feminists who are leading the way on this. British women are notoriously no nonsense and I love it.

I first found out about this ideology quite recently by accident when I stumbled across a group of people calling another group of people 'terfs.' It lead me to the gender critical subreddit on reddit where I started reading more about it and I had that feeling I am sure you are all familiar with - that dawning, terrible realisation about what is happening and your stomach lurches. There's no going back from that, once you see it you can't unsee it.

I'm so thankful to forums like this one where we can discuss these issues openly and honestly without being shouted at (although the shouters do keep turning up here too, I notice.)

I have PTSD from experiencing domestic abuse and women only places have been essential for me during my recovery from that. I don't hate all men or think they are all abusers and rapists, far from it. But I got completely fooled by my ex who I thought was a good man so now I am left with hyper vigilance and anxiety if I have to share an alone space with a man (which I have managed to avoid almost completely, apart from a male doctor and a manager).

When I found out that people had been lobbying for men who identified as women to be allowed into our toilets, changing rooms and refuges, I just couldn't believe what I was hearing. It makes me very angry when I hear women say they don't fear men so are happy to share intimate spaces with them. What about women like me, women who have experienced domestic abuse, rape and sexual assault, do our opinions matter too? It seems that society as a whole doesn't seem to think so. It's like collectively, society has forgotten why we had those places in the first place, forgotten about safeguarding, forgotten about female biology. And for that reason I am eternally thankful for women (and men) like you who do speak up.

I feel for any person who is so uncomfortable in their body so much that they want to completely disassociate themselves from their biological sex. But it would be so much healthier if these people were helped by society with counselling, and also if society allowed men to wear dresses without giving them abuse.

The alternative, where men who like to wear dresses are now declaring themselves to actually be women legally, so that they get access to all of our spaces, is nightmarish to me. In my mind it is the complete opposite of what should be happening - these gender non conforming men should be welcomed into men's spaces and taught that it's ok to be a gender non conforming man, because gender is a social construct anyway.

I wanted to ask, how do you stay positive and not despair? Because I often find myself feeling very worried about the future. I worry that my liberty will be reduced once again if they bring in self ID, because I'm going to feel scared of encountering men in toilets and changing rooms. I worry about jobs that were set aside for women to help more women access industries they had previously been shut out of, being given to men who identify as women. I worry about asking for a female nurse or doctor for a smear test, being told that the nurse is female and it being a biological male who identifies as a woman. I worry about children being sent down this path of hormones and surgery. I feel sad and alarmed at seeing the aggression and misogyny that many young women, caught up in all of this, spew towards older women. They think we are the enemy, they think feminism is the enemy, whilst also thinking that porn and prostitution are empowering, and that if you don't like dressing feminine then you 'really are a man.' And they guard and protect their ideology with a vitriol I don't remember seeing in my own youth about other issues.

OP posts:
JackyHolyoake · 09/08/2019 17:56

A really progressive society would be expressed via men accepting that some of their number present themselves differently and accommodate them.

Michelleoftheresistance · 09/08/2019 18:26

how do you stay positive and not despair?

The posts like yours help Grin

Its starting to shift. Things have come out and been acknowledged that won't get back under the carpet again, although it's going to be a long road. Things that you may find help: reading and posting here and sharing your views helps, plenty of people read without posting and think and act. Including journalists. You can write to your MP or go and see them. You can join in with the FoI requesting, bringing facts and omittances and bias to light. You can watch some of the brilliant meetings on line on youtube and transcripted, or go to one. Lots of ways to do something positive.

OhHolyJesus · 09/08/2019 18:36

There are little wins all the time, that helps me stay positive. Whether it's trans peaking someone or hearing about progress on a legal case like Harry Miller or Maya Forstarter. The media coverage on our puberty blockers is now becoming more critical and the investigation has been ordered. Big steps and little steps all the time.

Hanging out here makes me feel pretty good and I can recommend joining some GC people in real life, like a ReSisters group too, if you can.

Gunk · 09/08/2019 18:48

I feel the same. It’s a new realisation for me.

I have long had concerns about children transitioning (the evidence shows brains are fully mature until early 20s in males so why the hell are they allowed to stop puberty?!) and actually feel it’s shameful we allow it. The thought of saying something like that out loud and being called a T**F scares me. Self ID is wide open to abuse but saying that out loud means being labelled and shouted down “It’s a minority!”. These are things I’ve thought of for ages and kept quiet because I’m generally pretty liberal and it doesn’t seem to sit right with my political views. I still keep quiet because I can’t articulate my thoughts well because they rush through me so fast.

I agree, if we lived in a truly tolerant society, non gender conforming males would be allowed to dress how they please and be welcomed in their spaces. That’s what I would like to see but with trans ideology that seems more and more unlikely.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 09/08/2019 18:58

Dear OP thank you for sharing your experiences I am so sorry to hear that you have suffered such abuse. Things are starting to shift because we have made our objections clear. I’ve recently written to Boris and will be sending letters to Amber and a second letter to my MP. Your experiences need to be heard by our law makers - they are exactly the reason why male bodied people should not be in women’s spaces. Now is the time to act with so much election fever. Stonewall and others sent a letter to Boris urging him to get on with self id as soon as he was appointed so as many women as possible need to make their voices heard. Can you do this? X

TurboTeddy · 09/08/2019 19:01

But I got completely fooled by my ex who I thought was a good man so now I am left with hyper vigilance and anxiety if I have to share an alone space with a man

It's shit isn't it? Sometimes I hate myself for being changed by my experiences. Like you I sometimes feel afraid of the future and frustrated that no one seems to be taking this seriously.

how do you stay positive and not despair?

I have moments when I do despair but this forum keeps me going. I'm perhaps more cynical than some but I think one of the reasons we will eventually come through this is because I know predatory and abusive men cannot help themselves. Women and children will continue to be collateral damage until the powers that be recover from their collective insanity and can no longer deny the harm this ideology does.

This is a great place to reassure yourself you're not losing your mind.

LangCleg · 09/08/2019 19:06

I wanted to ask, how do you stay positive and not despair?

Because women with male-related trauma, like you, need us.

Datun · 09/08/2019 19:26

how do you stay positive and not despair?

I've been talking about this on here for about four years. I can promise you there is a massive shift.

The ratio, originally, was a few gender critical women and a massive amount of people disagreeing. Even on FWR.

It's completely changed. People are becoming more aware. Simple facts like how many men retain their penis. Transing of children which people simply don't buy.

But most of all, it's the behaviour of men and men who identify as transactivists.

People like Yaniv, Karen White, Edward Lord closing down women only pools, Travis whatishisname wanting to get changed with the prepubescent girls.

And all the nonsense they spout on Twitter, whilst getting their penises out in public.

All of them. Too numerous to mention.

The concept should have been enough. But it wasn't. Because patriarchy. But the snowball effect happens once people take notice.

And they are, they have. The media. Normal people. It is now hurtling towards critical mass.

If you're new to this, you may not realise how things have changed. But I promise you, they have.

The pushback against that, is happening too, of course. Hence it becoming even more outrageous with ball waxing nonsense.

But women are, very definitely, gaining ground.

That's why I don't despair.

And OP? Don't forget, the sun is still shining, the dog wants walking, the kids need feeding, binge telly is fantastic, that first morning coffee is a dream, and the sun is always over the yard arm somewhere. Take time out if you need to.

boatyardblues · 09/08/2019 19:57

If you're new to this, you may not realise how things have changed. But I promise you, they have.

I remember about 3 years when the first very mildly critical articles were published and they were discussed on here almost in hushed tones because everyone was so amazed they had actually been published at all. Such was the totality of the #nodebate news blackout. The debate has moved on hugely even in the last 12 months.

Cascade220 · 09/08/2019 19:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 09/08/2019 20:04

That's possibly an incredibly selfish reason, but the escalation of the 'trans agenda' has done wonders for bringing feminism to more women and for women meeting other women, and for so many new friendships and bonds.

It absolutely has. Every time the penny drops, another fledgling feminist says wait, what?!

picklemepopcorn · 09/08/2019 20:05

I stay positive because not one single person that I have spoken to IRL thinks what is happening is right. That says to me, that this cannot go unchallenged much longer.

The people taking public flack over this are sheroes, raising awareness of a ridiculous issue.

People like Martina Navratilova, Sharon Davies, Jenny Murray etc.

I also really appreciate the trans women who have stood up and agreed that trans women are not female, and the likes of Harry and Glinner.

Manderleyagain · 09/08/2019 20:15

Alwaystawnwyowl what did you say to Boris? I was wondering about doing the same thing but wasn't sure how I would pitch it.

zebrasdontwearbras · 09/08/2019 20:19

I stay positive, on the whole, because I'm standing with the best women, with terrific humour, incredible intelligence and there's a real feeling of solidarity.

I have positive days - PULLLLLL, my god it's moving!

And negative days, when I think this is just going to be pushed through anyway. But we'll see. I know transactivism is all a load of crap, so I feel I'm on the right side of history.

And I'm going on holiday tomorrow! Life goes on, I should be doing my pre-holiday cleaning, but I'm messing around on mumsnet Wink

OP, I urge you to write to your MP, if you haven't already. Say just what you've said here. Lots of people in power are turning a blind eye to women's experiences, and just making out it's a load of scaremongering.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 10/08/2019 00:01

A positive thread to bump and end Friday with. Everyone is right AnotherAdultHumanFemale - there's been such a massive shift in public opinion recently as people become aware of the unacceptable treatment of children, the eradication of women's sport and the evident dangers posed by certain individuals. There's a mountain to climb but, the blossoming of so many women's groups - large and small, open and hidden has been a brilliant side effect.
You can't silence every woman - they've tried and failed.

AnotherAdultHumanFemale · 10/08/2019 19:41

Thanks everyone, you just proved your awesomeness once again Smile

Datun I cried when I read this, you're so right:

And OP? Don't forget, the sun is still shining, the dog wants walking, the kids need feeding, binge telly is fantastic, that first morning coffee is a dream, and the sun is always over the yard arm somewhere. Take time out if you need to.

AlwaysTawnyOwl I have drafted an email to my MP about three times but haven't had the courage to send it yet, in case I get investigated for transphobia or something (the current climate is so insane and unpredictable I have genuine fear about speaking up). However I think if I write pretty much what I wrote above my MP should be able to see that I am not coming from a place of hatred or bigotry but concern for the rights and protections of women and children.

I will be brave and do it.

I'm glad to have found this forum. I will also look into finding a local group too. I'd like to attend a talk but tend to feel panicky and trapped in rooms where I have to listen for a long time so not sure I can manage one. The thought of encountering some aggressive or even violent TRAs does not help my anxiety about attending meetings either but I will have a think about it.

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Cascade220 · 10/08/2019 20:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Campervan69 · 10/08/2019 20:51

Write your letter exactly as you have posted in your original post. Send it to your MP and also send it to Boris Johnson. I saw a program the other day that was saying that Boris is really unpopular with women and I think one thing he could do would be to support us in this fight and that would certainly increase his popularity with women voters. So I suppose the more of us that write to him it's a distinct possibility

Campervan69 · 10/08/2019 20:54

Also definitely go to meetings the TRAS are not frightening I promise you they're just young shouty students mainly female sadly. There were a pitifully small number at the meetings I've attended.

I think all the really loony ones are American Twitter weirdos who live in their mom's basement and overdose on porn. They are very unlikely to be protesting outside a local feminist meeting in the UK.

AnotherAdultHumanFemale · 10/08/2019 21:12

I think all the really loony ones are American Twitter weirdos who live in their mom's basement and overdose on porn.

This made me laugh thank you, I think you're right!

Ok I'll write to Boris too, why not. I don't have much faith in him since he's a serial philanderer but one positive about right wingers is that they tend to like things being sensible and traditional (hence the word conservative) which thankfully goes against transgender ideology. That and the tories might be interested to hear that Labour have lost hundreds of women voters like me over this issue.

Labour no longer support the working class so there are a lot of votes out there up for grabs to whichever party works out the soonest that most people don't want their children transed nor do they want women having to share toilets with men.

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