Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

James Kirkup in D Telegraph on Katie Alcock and Girl Guides

35 replies

BiologyIsReal · 06/08/2019 10:29

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/06/new-trans-orthodoxy-scaring-even-stalwart-organisations-silence/

Can't see if anyone else has posted the above. James Kirkup "How trans orthodoxy is silencing women".

Thank you once again James.

It's behind a paywall but it's page 14 in print edition this morning if you can't access it.

OP posts:
FormerMediocreMale · 06/08/2019 10:33

Thanks again james

sashh · 06/08/2019 10:40

Copy and paste of the article.

Katie Alcock is an unlikely heretic. For a decade she helped run Brownie and Girl Guide groups in Lancaster. Then she was expelled.

Girlguiding said she had violated its policies on equality and diversity. Her offence was to suggest that people born male who now say they are female should not automatically be welcomed by a female-only organisation and, for instance, share tents or bathrooms with girls.

In any other context, Alcock’s views would be uncontroversial. Organisations like Girlguiding have safeguarding policies to control interactions between girls and those whose male anatomy gives them the potential to be a threat to those girls. In any other context, Girlguiding would stand squarely behind Alcock.

So why, when the interests of transgender people are invoked, does Girlguiding seem to apply a different standard? It is far from alone. Universities, local councils, the BBC, and charities are among organisations where women who question policies intended to promote transgender equality fear sanction and dismissal.

A common concern is that measures intended to make life easier for people born male who now identify as women will have consequences for services and opportunities previously reserved for people born with female bodies.

Toilets come up with depressing frequency in this debate. Lots of organisations are adopting “gender neutral” bathrooms, or renaming their women’s toilets “gender neutral” to spare transgender people the awkward choice of whether to use the facility that aligns with their physical sex or their professed gender.

Yet what about women who aren’t happy sharing such spaces with biological males? Or who worry that opening up services reserved for women to male-born transwomen is unfair on women who have faced a lifetime of social and economic sexism?

I know women in half-a-dozen organisations, mainly public sector ones, who have such worries but say they don’t dare raise the issue for fear of violating diversity policies or of being accused of prejudice. The well-meaning drive to do better for transgender people can leave women feeling silenced. Strikingly, the organisations responsible pride themselves on being progressive, inclusive employers who would never dream of treating women so poorly in other circumstances. So how does this all come about?

This is a story of institutional capture and skilful lobbying. Many organisations embracing trans-inclusive policies do so in light of advice from trans-rights groups that don’t just provide workplace training, but also lobby politicians to change laws and policies to favour transgender people. There is nothing untoward about the activities of trans-rights groups such as Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence, but it is a fact that they are not neutral providers of objective advice on implementing equalities laws.

Such advocates can exert great influence, partly because the law on transgender rights is complex and messy. Even the language can baffle. Many public bodies routinely conflate “sex” and “gender”, which mean very different things in law. “Sex” denotes a person’s fundamental biology. “Gender reassignment” indicates a person is seeking to change the social role in which they live; crucially, no physiological change is required.

Imagine you are a public sector manager trying to navigate this social and legal minefield. An authoritative-sounding group advises you that failing to respect someone’s “gender identity” could breach equality laws, making no mention of your obligation to consider sex too. In the back of your mind is the knowledge that if you get this wrong, you could face a career-ending accusation of transphobia. Is it any wonder that so many organisations subscribe unquestioningly to trans-rights orthodoxy?

This is how a woman such as Katie Alcock finds herself having to sue Girlguiding to have her concerns take seriously. And all of this is possible because politicians have either refused to engage in the complex, emotive debate about sex and gender, or have simply signed up to the trans-rights orthodoxy without question or scrutiny. The results are bad for women and transgender people alike. In the absence of leadership, Katie Alcock’s case will not be the last.

Datun · 06/08/2019 10:48

He's so clear. An excellent communicator. Leaves out the rhetoric and manages to establish his point very effectively.

VortexofBloggery · 06/08/2019 10:50

Thanks Sashh.

littlbrowndog · 06/08/2019 10:56

What a great piece

Women being silenced.

Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 06/08/2019 11:00

I'm really pleased to see the discussion of regulatory capture and the naming of organisations such as the BBC. As noted frequently on these boards, it must seem far-fetched - and therefore easy to ignore - without people like James explaining how the views of minority lobby groups hold sway over important institutions.

It's another sliver

KatieAlcock · 06/08/2019 11:00

Oh WOW!
I had not spotted this!
Thank you so much for letting me know!

littlbrowndog · 06/08/2019 11:05

Yeah it’s like James Morton of Scottish trans alliance in Scotland being involved in impact assessment for women’s prison

How do lobby groups get to write policy

LangCleg · 06/08/2019 11:19

I'm really pleased to see the discussion of regulatory capture and the naming of organisations such as the BBC. As noted frequently on these boards, it must seem far-fetched - and therefore easy to ignore - without people like James explaining how the views of minority lobby groups hold sway over important institutions.

Yes, me too. Thanks, James.

littlbrowndog · 06/08/2019 11:40

Bumping

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 06/08/2019 12:00

Imagine you are a public sector manager trying to navigate this social and legal minefield. An authoritative-sounding group advises you that failing to respect someone’s “gender identity” could breach equality laws, making no mention of your obligation to consider sex too.

This is a very good article. I pick out this point because I want to make a wider one about 'he who shouts loudest'.

I work in the public sector. The vast majority of the public who sign up to our service do not fill in the equalities questionnaire which is voluntary. Most people do not consider their religion, or sexual orientation to be relevant to us and tend to assume we aren't blind so can see their sex.

People with disabilities do tend to fill it out, which is good because that actually does matter to our service. We do need to know who might need additional assistance.

Occasionally, and this is rare, you will get people who very pointedly highlight, for example, their religion. Ninety-nine times out of a hundred those people prove to be a royal pain in the arse. They are the people public sector managers fear because they are the people who complain about anything and everything. Public sector managers are used to dealing with 'he who shouts loudest' and pandering to them because public services can't afford to end up in court. They know it. Trans privilege activists know it. It is a toxic mix.

Lawlsie1976 · 06/08/2019 12:50

On a point of information re religion... I am not religious but when given the option to do so, I will say Jewish simply because we are so tiny in number I feel it's important to make our presence felt. I also point out, if asked, this doesn't mean special food, treatment, going home early on a Friday or anything like that. I just want us to be counted in any stats and data that's going. So I always fill out equal ops forms and tick Jewish on the census, even tho I don't practise.

Lawlsie1976 · 06/08/2019 12:52

This is a story of institutional capture and skilful lobbying.

Says it all really. And when any organisation or a number of organisations working together are so very successful in lobbying and institutional capture someone should ask why and follow up. Or as Deep Throat said to Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein, "Follow the money..."

JessicaWakefieldSV · 06/08/2019 12:56

Excellent

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 06/08/2019 14:19

Ah James, he is brilliant. He just lays out the facts very clearly, no opinion included really, and leaves the reader to make up their own mind.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 06/08/2019 14:45

On a point of information re religion... I am not religious but when given the option to do so, I will say Jewish simply because we are so tiny in number I feel it's important to make our presence felt.

I hear you Lawls, it's hard enough to have opinions while female without the shite you get for having opinions while Jewish on top.

Really wasn't thinking of religions outside of Christianity here, more trying to highlight public sector managers' long and often bitter experience with 'know their rights' types.

Ornery · 06/08/2019 15:13

Oi. Boris. James Kirkuk for Equalities Advisor?

truthisarevolutionaryact · 06/08/2019 15:17

Yet another excellent article from James. He really gets it and critically is writing in the press that many politicians read / take note of. It therefore becomes more difficult for the captured civil servants to persuade politicians that the trans experience is the only horse in town and must be followed at all costs.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 06/08/2019 15:27

A great piece and in mainstream Tory media. Personally I think that much of this mess could be sorted out if:-

1 The Government very clearly defines ‘sex’ and ‘gender’ and the difference between them.

2 They state that SEX cannot be changed while GENDER can be

3 As ‘sex’ cannot be changed a GRC cannot allow the holder to have a new birth certificate as this defines a persons sex

  1. Sex based exemptions are then easier to apply - at the moment once you have a GRC you are legally female hence sex based exemptions don’t apply to you
  1. The Government issues guidance as to when organisations can apply a sex based exemption and gives examples

In this scenario a GRC means the holder has declared their identity to be different to the one expected from their birth certificate and this new identity must be respected except when a sex based exemption applies

Lawlsie1976 · 06/08/2019 15:32

@ ArnoldWhatshisknickers No worries Arnold! Quite understand.

boatyardblues · 06/08/2019 16:13

There is nothing untoward about the activities of trans-rights groups such as Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence, but it is a fact that they are not neutral providers of objective advice on implementing equalities laws.

This sentence caught my eye.

TurboTeddy · 06/08/2019 16:51

male-born transwomen

He writes with real clarity and I appreciate the way he emphasises biological sex.

Goosefoot · 06/08/2019 17:20

I find his articles good. There isn't anything really rhetorically emotive and they are clear about the facts, so they are very good for giving to people who don't know much about the issues and don't have a strong opinion.

Ritascornershop · 06/08/2019 18:33

TawnyOwl, I’m in Canada and would be very happy to see our government adopt those measures (though I believe it’ll be a very long way down the road before it happens).

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 06/08/2019 19:25

Another superb piece by James Kirkup. I'll ask DF to cut out the article and save it for me.