Concerns over housing trans inmates in women's prisons

[EweSurname]

This was reported yesterday but I’m not sure if this is new. Have posted it anyway just in case

stv.tv/news/politics/1439716-concerns-over-housing-trans-inmates-in-women-s-prisons/

A decision to house trans inmates in women's prisons will be reviewed after a new report criticised the policy.

The Scottish Prison Service said it would hold a consultation after research was published by a leading former civil servant.

There are 15 trans women inside Scotland's jails - around half of which are housed in female prisons. None of themn have undergone sex reassignment surgery and none have legally changed their gender.

One prison worker told STV News that prisoners were regularly being subjected to displays of "sexualised behaviour".

What can I say but thank God for that. Why does it take them so long?

It should never have been implemented in the first place and now we are supposed to be grateful they are reconsidering

How there is even money to pander to this when women in custody have reported being deprived of basics such as san pro I dont know.

These days I think.the more dangerous criminals are the wrong side of the bars...

This is awful. How on earth did this policy get put in place to start with. Just ridiculous.

I know Julie Bindel has done a lot of work for female prisoners in the past, if anyone knows if she or anyone else is campaigning on this issue, please share. I’d like to donate if they’re taking donations.

I wish these articles would make it clear that a "trans woman" is male. Some people don't know this as the words "trans woman" are, I think, very misleading.

Fair Play for Women have done a lot of work on the effect of trans women in women's prisons.

They did mention on the news that the trans prisoners hadn’t had surgery.

Bbc never covered this at all

forwomen.scot
@ForwomenScot
STV news first item (link: player.stv.tv/episode/3t84/stv-news-glasgow/ )
We were shocked by the way Tom Fox & James Morton brushed off fact of women being traumatised & sexually threatened in supposedly same-sex spaces by those who are legally & physically male. #womensrights matter as does their safety.

From the article:

"James Morton, of the Scottish Trans Alliance, worked alongside the Scottish Prison Service (SPS) to develop the policy of housing trans women in female jails. He said there was "loads of discussion" to make sure female prisoners weren't "inadvertently negatively affected".

How is James Morton an expert in the safety of women in the justice system? What are Morton's qualifications in this area? Why are lobby groups even involved in discussions about prison inmates in the first place, far less dictating policy?

None of them have undergone sex reassignment surgery and none have legally changed their gender.

This may no longer be true.

metro.co.uk/2018/11/19/trans-murderer-granted-20000-gender-reassignment-surgery-on-the-nhs-8156185/

This article states that Peter Laing now Paris Green was about to have reassignment surgery in November last year. Of course that could have been facial feminisation surgery and breast implants, leaving the genitals untouched.

So, it could be correct that no male prisoner has had his genitals removed, but that other surgeries have been done.

Paris Green, formerly Peter Laing, murdered Robert Shankland, 45, who was sexually assaulted before being battered to death in Green’s flat.

Green has been moved between the male and female estates since incarceration.

Green was previously moved from Cornton Vale women's prison for having sex with female inmates to the men's wing at HMP Edinburgh. Then Green was moved to the women's wing at HMP Edinburgh. Where Green promptly had sex with some female inmates again. Moved back to the men's wing. Then moved back again to the women's wing.

Yes popchyck. How can James Morton be talking about women’s safety in prison
He is lobbying for trans people.

And loads of discussions well.
Is that how policy is made ?

By discussing policy with a lobby group

"He is lobbying for trans people".

Clearly.

And nobody is lobbying for women. Nobody is allowed to lobby for women.

So who is erased here?

"James Morton, of the Scottish Trans Alliance, worked alongside the Scottish Prison Service (SPS) to develop the policy of housing trans women in female jails. He said there was "loads of discussion" to make sure female prisoners weren't "inadvertently negatively affected".

Not sure if this is the same person but I watched footage from the event at Edinburgh University where the Scottish prison policy regarding trans prisoners was discussed by one of the speakers, she reported that the view of STA was that prisons were the most challenging environment for them to tackle but if they could get transwomen housed in the female estate then negotiating away single sex spaces in schools and hospitals would be easier by comparison. They have a plan!

For me what is most alarming is that self ID IS NOT LAW and yet people who are biologically and legally male are being housed with female prisoners. They do not need to review the policy, they need to fucking stop it until the matter has been legally settled. The Scottish government must have liability if female prisoners are harmed by having male offenders housed with them.

My concern now is that by being seen to review the policy they will try to make any new policy look like a compromise that women should be grateful for, "we listened to your concerns and have taken action". The only acceptable policy is one which prioritises women's safety. If there are concerns about transwomen self harming if housed in the male estate then do something about mental health provision.

Feeling slightly pissed off and fed up with this bullshit today.

I had just a sticky conversation with my sister on this. She’s been part of a campaign team trying to get a MtF prisoner moved to a women’s prison, on the grounds of risk of (or possibly actual) sexual assault in the men’s prison. Apparently the vulnerable prisoners are housed together, but that meant putting this particular poor soul - who isn’t a sex offender - in with some very dodgy characters indeed.

DSis was a bit appalled that I still didn’t think the women’s prison was the right option, but looked thoughtful when I said that some women would be naturally anxious if sharing facilities with any male. We agreed that neither place seemed the right answer.

Green was previously moved from Cornton Vale women's prison for having sex with female inmates to the men's wing at HMP Edinburgh. Then Green was moved to the women's wing at HMP Edinburgh. Where Green promptly had sex with some female inmates again. Moved back to the men's wing. Then moved back again to the women's wing.

Zero lessons learned and zero fucks given regarding vulnerable women.

She’s been part of a campaign team trying to get a MtF prisoner moved to a women’s prison, on the grounds of risk of (or possibly actual) sexual assault in the men’s prison. Apparently the vulnerable prisoners are housed together, but that meant putting this particular poor soul - who isn’t a sex offender - in with some very dodgy characters indeed.

Sounds like a very tricky conversation. At no point did they consider that they would be better to campaign for a dedicated wing/facility somewhere rather than kick the problem into the women's estate?

FernPotts ask your sister what safeguards she is campaigning to have put in place for the female prisoners, a vast percentage of whom will have been a victim of male sexual violence, in order to protect them from the distress of having to share with a male bodied person. Ask her is she knows if the trans prisoner has had their penis and scrotum removed. If she doesn’t know the answer to that, then should vulnerable female prisoners be forced to either share with someone with a penis or would their refusal be seen as bigoted? If their refusal to share with a male bodied person is due to horrific sexual violence and resulting PTSD, whose feelings should be put first?

Sounds like a very tricky conversation. At no point did they consider that they would be better to campaign for a dedicated wing/facility somewhere rather than kick the problem into the women's estate?

It's such an obvious solution, I wonder why that isn't considered acceptable? Are women now expected to validate another person's gender identity as part of their prison sentence?

There must be loads of vulnerable prisoners, who aren't attacked for being paedophiles or sex offenders, though.

Effeminate men, gay men, old men, men with mental health issues. Men who, themselves, don't constitute a significant threat, but would still be inappropriate in the female estate, where the fact they are male is the threat.

No one wants to see someone being attacked in prison, male or female. But the solution isn't to sacrifice women's privacy, peace of mind and safety.

I realise there may not be that many transwomen specifically, but surely, they are hundreds of vulnerable male prisoners, who themselves do not constitute a risk to other male prisoners.

I meant to say, this is all about validation, isn't it. Otherwise all the vulnerable prisoners I mentioned above, would go to the female estate.

We’ll keep talking. As far as I can see she’d only thought of it from the viewpoint of the transwoman, who she’s only ever known under a female name.

I've just had a thought about this:

There are 15 trans women inside Scotland's jails - around half of which are housed in female prisons. None of them have undergone sex reassignment surgery and none have legally changed their gender.

But what do they mean by transgender in this context?

Reading it back, it seems to mean only those men who have not changed their names by deed poll or men who do not have a GRC.

That leaves all the other men who have changed their names legally or who have a GRC defined as "not transgender" by the prison service's definition.

So Peter Laing/Paris Green (murderer) is now female according to the prison service and not trangender.

Daniel/Sophie Eastwood (who murdered a male cell-mate in prison, and known as the Hanibal Lecter killer by the tabloids, before being moved to a women's prison) is now female according to the prison service. And is not transgender.

Alex Stewart/Alan Baker (who murdered a man) is now female.

And so it goes.

Datun

Littlehay, (England not Scotland) is around 80% sex offenders(paedophiles) and the other 20% vulnerable prisoners. I dont imagine a risk assessment would find an adult TW to be at much risk there or somewhere similar, a TW is unlikely to be their taste in the same respect a female guard would not be to their taste either.

And just in terms of numbers, there are about 7, 800 men in prison in Scotland.

Only 15 of them identify as transgender, according to the prison service.

That makes them about 0.2% of the male prison population.

But a recent report of England and Wales (by HM Chief Inspetor of Prisons), puts the number of prisoners identifying as 2%.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7287343/PAUL-BRACCHI-1-50-inmates-male-prisons-claim-transgender.html

My feeling is that the Scottish Prison Service is deliberately trying to conceal the issues and only using the word "transgender" to describe a very small subset of prisoners who identify as transgender.

Shame we don't have a decent press in this country who would investigate this.

Effeminate men, gay men, old men, men with mental health issues. Men who, themselves, don't constitute a significant threat, but would still be inappropriate in the female estate, where the fact they are male is the threat.

I wonder how many men who are vulnerable might themselves potential aggressors to other vulnerable men?

We definitely need an overall reform of the criminal justice system. And we need workable systems - not amendments for individuals as in this case that solve nothing and don't prompt an overall solution.

I wonder how many men who are vulnerable might themselves potential aggressors to other vulnerable men?

Well yes. I imagine the whole situation is an explosive cocktail of hierarchical issues.

Deciding to shove it all into the female estate is just barbaric, though (and yes I'm sure the same hierarchical issues happen in the female prison, but it's the whole fox and henhouse scenario).

Scotland was where someone got hold of equalities impact assessment of putting transwomen in womens prisons.

Was handwritten doc next to protected characteristic of sex the writing simply said n/a