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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

New article by Michael Biggs that I imagine will be controversial - how feminism paved the way for transgenderism

122 replies

AnotherLass · 02/08/2019 11:04

quillette.com/2019/08/01/how-feminism-paved-the-way-for-transgenderism/

Rough summary: it is largely females who have pushed gender ID ideology and some of the reason for it may be "blank slate" feminism

I think that this is an interesting article, although I am not sure if I agree with him or not. I found it uncomfortable reading and I imagined that it would be controversial here, so I'm interested to hear what people have to say.

OP posts:
Goosefoot · 04/08/2019 13:47

ArnoldWhatshisknickers

You might find it interesting to know that there is a similar kind of distribution of men and women within Christianity as well, even outside of places like Africa and in the west. Some groups, like Pentecostals, or Anglicans and other mainline groups, tend to be very heavily female dominated these days. The Catholics not as much but still tend to have more women attending. The Eastern Orthodox churches are much more even, with as many men as women.
There have been some interesting books written about why this might be, and there are some links. Women tend to be much more drawn to attend based on links to other people, and they are less likely to be turned off by emotional language, touchy feely stuff, and so on. Men seem to want a different kind of spirituality that is more direct, less touchy-feely, in some ways more personally demanding, and they are more likely to demand a strong theological basis.

Which sounds very stereotyped, but I would say it very much fits my observations, and I'm a woman who really is much more like a man in that sense. Men do not like singing songs that make it sound like Jesus is their boyfriend.

I would say too that I'm not convinced that the kind of tendency to religiosity you are thinking about is really about religion at all. I think a great many people just tend to believe what is dominant around them, and seems true to them. Some are a little more concrete, some more people oriented, some more values oriented. But I see people like this adopting all kinds of religious and non-religious perspectives because in the end, they don't really spend a lot of time thinking about it.

Transgenderism seems to be largely uncritically adopted by a certain type of modern western believer in what I think of as individualistic progressivism, which is usually atheistic but sometimes "spiritual but not religious," or sometimes belongs to religions that are largely indistinguishable from individualistic progressivism (like the CofE).

Goosefoot · 04/08/2019 13:52

I think maybe we don't have to worry about transhumanism too much. I think climate change will put all that on the back burner. We will be very consumed with rethinking a lot of more basic issues, like how do we grow food in a desert, how do we get by without antibiotics when distribution comes to a halt, etc.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 04/08/2019 14:07

Hmm, I'm not sure whether to hope you are right or wrong about trans-humanism, Goosefoot.

Certainly it bothers me that there are some very wealthy and powerful people pushing that agenda.

clitherow · 04/08/2019 14:57

We are bipeds. That seems to me the basic quirk of evolutionary fate that set us on the road to what we are today. It has gifted us an unrivalled ability in tool use, which is not in and of itself unique to humans, but no other species has hands free to use them to the extent we do

I understand what you're saying, but I would argue that the ability to be self-aware; to write the Merchant of Venice and compose the Eroica symphony (for instance) makes us something more than a tool-using bi-ped!! It may be that I'm just an old romantic!

AlwaysComingHome · 04/08/2019 15:22

What separates us from the other animals - higher intelligence, creativity, self awareness - vanished the moment fear or panic or hate takes over.

What we call humanity is a set of late evolutionary adaptations that are built on our animal-selves.

Evolution can only work on the material available to it. If you were going to invent the eye from scratch you wouldn’t create the moist jelly we have inherited from our fish ancestors. If you wanted to invent a human brain perfectly adapted to city life you wouldn’t start from an organ that evolved to detect food and threats in the savannah.

clitherow · 04/08/2019 15:36

Evolution can only work on the material available to it.

But the fact remains that we don't know where this life-bearing material came from and if you want a more in-depth discussion of this than I am able to give you then a good book to read is The Fifth Miracle - The Search for the Origin of Life by the physicist Paul Davies. This is a brilliant rehearsal of all the issues and he is not pushing a religious point of view.

Also, you cannot judge human consciousness by in extremis situations. We share much of our lower emotional and cognitive functioning with animals, but it is the higher functions of reasoning, will and intellect that make us different. However, no one would argue that there is a perfect human being with perfect consciousness who is not liable to interference from our baser selves. if that were the case we would be living in paradise. But don't throw the higher functioning baby out with our animal bathwater!

ArranUpsideDown · 04/08/2019 20:15

Interesting discussion which I can't quote but provides some discussion of players in the history of gender ideology:

twitter.com/rdqb80/status/1157770148322926592?s=20

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 04/08/2019 20:18

It may be that I'm just an old romantic!

Nothing wrong with being an old romantic.

I guess I just don't see a contradiction between the two positions. I see that higher level of consciousness, our huge pre-frontal cortex as a consequence of our unique position within the animal kingdom, not something that sets us apart from it. It irritates me that there are people who seek to tinker with our brains when we are only beginning to scratch the surface of understanding them.

I agree that you cannot judge higher functioning in terms of extreme situations as our responses to those, that 'fight or flight' mode, do not come from the same part of the brain. Am also not familiar with the book you mention but it strikes me as interesting that it is written by a physicist rather than a biologist as I often feel physical and biological sciences give rise to rather different world views, so I'm curious to see a physicist's view of what is a fundamentally biological question.

(for the record my parents were both physicists and I have a degree in physical sciences myself so I'm not having a pop at physicists here)

Goosefoot · 04/08/2019 22:47

Is there really a need to set apart the consciousness question from whether or not we are animals?
There isn't any doubt that we are animals, so all our capacities are enfleshed, they are part of our materiality. That must include our consciousness.

But is does seem to be a facet of our consciousness that creates a sort of separation from our materiality. We can reflect on it, we can be divided against ourselves. We can know things that aren't materialised, like mathematics, and imagine all kinds of possibilities, including absurd or paradoxical ones.

This seems to be the basis of our rationality, why we can make art, have ethics, engage in dialectic, be in touch with the formal realm.

Stopthisnow · 06/08/2019 01:20

Evolutionary psychology has always been the province of white men who are incapable of seeing their own biases.

I agree. While Quillette has published articles opposing transgender ideology it is very much a mouth piece for evolutionary psychology.

Stopthisnow · 06/08/2019 01:24

hormones absolutely influence behaviour.

Obviously testosterone can make one more aggressive, and can increase one’s sexual drive, I have never heard anyone argue otherwise. What hormones don’t do is determine whether someone likes dresses, skirts, make-up, trousers or short/long hair, neither do they make someone more suited to math, science or arts etc.

Stopthisnow · 06/08/2019 01:42

It is also interesting that this guy does not mention how the medical establishment, particularly psychiatry, has long supported transgender ideology, which has led to it being seen as legitimate by many more people outside of academia. Or the fact the medical establishment and their ethics committees have decided that it is ethical to change one’s body to reflect one’s personality. This guy also ignores that the more the sex roles are enforced the more likely people are to believe they are the opposite sex if they do not conform to them. As another poster said transgenderism cannot exist if the sex roles are not enforced and males can be ‘feminine’ boys/men and females can be ‘masculine’ girls/women without the assumption this makes them somehow like the opposite sex.

He also ignores the role gay men have played, not only through their creation and promotion of queer theory, but also historically gay men have supported the idea that there is something biological about them that is similar to heterosexual women. This has also added legitimacy to the idea of ‘sex changes’ and trans ideology. For example, as far back as the 19th century, gay men such as the lawyer Karl Heinrich Ulrichs argued that homosexual men have a ‘female soul’ trapped in a male body, and claimed liking things associated with the opposite sex was further evidence of this ‘feminine essence’, or ‘female psyche’. Another gay man Magnus Hirschfeld a sexologist claimed homosexuality was a form of hermaphroditism. (Both these men are widely celebrated by queer theorists.) They weren’t alone in their beliefs, many sexologists held similar views, and some in the medical establishment accepted these theories at the time.

However, there were also those who rejected this and thought homosexuality was acquired in one way or another. Indeed, the medical establishment split off into two directions in the late 19th/early 20th century, those who thought homosexuality was acquired and sought to ‘cure’ it by psychological and behavioural methods, e.g. psychoanalysis and aversion therapy, and those who viewed it as as a biological condition, and sought to ‘cure’ it by physical means, e.g. reproductive organ implantation and rudimentary ‘sex change’ surgeries. This progressed to giving testosterone to gay men in the 1940’s to try to make them attracted to women, when this didn’t work they were given female hormones in the 1950’s to try to lower their sex drives. More gay men were also being given ‘sex change’ operations at this time. These ‘cures’ were given, as homosexuals were thought to be somehow biologically like the opposite sex, i.e. that homosexuality is some kind of intersex condition. It is not difficult to see how transgender ideology has been developed from this.

By the late 1960’s and 1970’s many in the gay liberation movement, and many lesbians in the women’s movement rejected the idea that homosexuality was innate. They also argued that regardless of whether it is acquired, innate or a choice homosexuality should not be subject to the medical establishments ‘cures’ of psychotherapy, aversion therapy and sex change surgeries. They did not endorse sex changes, and saw them as the establishments way of turning homosexuals into pseudo heterosexuals, and as an extreme way to eliminate sex role non-conformity.

By the 1980’s gay men were going through the aids crisis, and public acceptance was low, it is around this time that we see a resurgence of gay rights groups arguing in favour of ‘born this way’. There are a number of discredited studies from the 1980’s and early 1990’s claiming to scientifically prove homosexuality is innate, due to homosexuals being more like heterosexual members of the opposite sex in various biological ways. For example, in 1991 a gay man Simon LeVay claimed his study found that gay men’s brains are similar to heterosexual women’s, the study had more holes in it than colander. However, it was still widely touted as proving homosexuality is innate, and that gay men were biologically similar to heterosexual women.

This demonstrates that although some gay men argued from a biological essentialist viewpoint, in the hopes of gaining more social acceptance, it has bolstered the idea that sex role stereotypes are innate and paved the way for transgender ideology. For example, if one accepts that sex role stereotypes (and homosexuality) are innate, then it makes transgender ideology seem more logical and acceptable to many people. It also explains why many see transgenderism as non-threatening to women, as if you believe in ‘born this way’ and think most are gay men, then you are more likely to feel sympathy. Moreover, ‘sex changes’ have been given to homosexual men to superficially ‘cure’ homosexuality for a very long time. The veneer of legitimacy that pseudo-science gives to the idea that sex roles are innate, enables the medical establishment to continue performing ‘sex changes’, without just seeming sexist or homophobic. Therefore, far from social constructivism, it is biological essentialism that has led to transgender ideology being accepted by the medical establishment. In the final analysis I would say it has been a two-pronged approach, where some males of the establishment have used social constructivism for their own gains, e.g. to say biological sex does not exit, whilst others have used biological essentialism when it suits them, e.g. to say that sex roles and/or sexuality are innate. Both are used for political purposes and that is to further whatever best suits males purposes at the time.

Micaela64 · 06/08/2019 08:53

Feminists were the first to push the idea that "gender is a social construct" which is a key factor to trans ideology.

TheInebriati · 06/08/2019 11:17

Gender is a social construct; if it were biologically hard wired then gender markers would be constant across different cultures and throughout time.

Trans activists say if your gender feels wrong its because you are the 'wrong sex', which is the opposite of what feminists say.,

If posters could stop misrepresenting feminism it would help the debate.

OldCrone · 06/08/2019 11:44

I said earlier in the thread, that transgenderism only makes sense in a society with rigid gender roles for the sexes, and an inability of those who don't fit to step outside those roles.

If we view gender as a social construct, which can therefore be changed or eliminated, transgenderism makes no sense, so the feminist view that 'gender is a social construct' could hardly be a 'key factor' of trans ideology.

clitherow · 06/08/2019 12:55

I often feel physical and biological sciences give rise to rather different world views, so I'm curious to see a physicist's view of what is a fundamentally biological question.

I hope I'm not derailing this thread but just wanted to say to Arnoldwhatshisknickers that biology is probably the most politicised of all of the sciences. I think eugenics and now the transgender debate is really showing this to be the case. Ultimately whoever takes control of defining what a human being is, takes control of human beings. I think that this is at the core of transgenderism.

You will know a lot more about this than me because I do not have a science background but I'm very interested in science. This is why I like it when physicists get involved in biology because I find them a lot more open and a lot more interesting. I recently read a book by Jim Al-Khalili called On the Edge - the coming age of quantum biology which talks about this new discipline in which the borders between physics and biology will become ever more blurred.

Also on the same subject Hi Goosefoot! In the same book, Al-Khalili talks about the "binding problem" - that is that although our mental processes seem to be enfleshed in the brain, there is no identifiable brain structure that brings together all of our sensory experiences in order to make them intelligible to us. Some scientists are now thinking that the electromagnetic fields of the body may play a pivotal role in consciousness. This has many and far-reaching implications and indicates that biology must be linked to quantum processing in some way. Paul Davies too is of the opinion that there is much more information available in the environment (that is directing life processes) than we are aware of. For anyone aware of the strangeness of quantum physics such as entanglement and non-locality this may have huge implications for the way we see life. The upshot of all of this is that it is simply not good enough to say that we are 'merely' animals because this reduces all life to a 'merely' when in fact it is nothing short of miraculous that life exists in the first place and most scientists that are really honest will admit that we know very little about life itself.

DonkeySkin · 06/08/2019 14:09

Paul Davies too is of the opinion that there is much more information available in the environment (that is directing life processes) than we are aware of.

Since we're going down the path of this interesting derail, here's a fascinating article by Paul Davies on the emerging field of 'quantum biology':

www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2019/february/1548939600/paul-davies/what-life

Goosefoot · 06/08/2019 18:03

I would never say we are "merely" animals, or if I did I misspoke. I don't know that animals are merely animals either.

I am not sure why it's really considered an oversight that the article only talks about one element the author thinks was necessary. That doesn't particularly imply that there weren't others, or other groups who in some way contributed. No where did he say "it's ALL the feminist's fault".

The idea that men and women as groups are identical apart from reproductive capacity is very common, and you can see in this discussion how much feminists are disinclined to challenge that idea, how we let it stand, because of a fear that it will be used in a way that we are uncomfortable with.

clitherow · 06/08/2019 19:38

Thanks for the link Donkeyskin - I am really interested in this new departure in science - apologies for the derail!

Sorry Goosefoot didn't mean to misrepresent your views, I obviously misunderstood what you were getting at.

I have been thinking about why so many women are actively promoting trans ideology and I think that part of the answer may be that feminism (don't know which branch - I'm not that knowledgable) did indeed push the blank slate idea.

So, if you believe (which I don't) that socialisation accounts for the majority of behavioural differences between men and women then you will think it a good idea to socialise girls and boys identically.

The aim is to equalise the life experiences of men and women. The main barrier to this equalisation is in biology - in the reproductive role. Women obviously bear the physical burden in this respect.

In this way, biology becomes the enemy.

In this period there has also been great emphasis - through psychoanalysis and so on - on self-actualisation. There was the so-called human potential movement that grew in and spread out of America, promoted by psychologists like Abraham Maslow. This has meant that we have all been led to believe that we have a right to fulfil our maximum potential - to make our dreams come true. This is a symptom of a fairly affluent late capitalist society.

In this way, biological barriers to achieving our "potential" become even more detested.

In this way some women will welcome anything that will tear down the barriers of biology - it is here that they find an affinity with men who think that they are women. They do not care if they are or if they are not but they support them in their efforts to bend biology to their desires. They see their reproductive role as nothing more than that of an incubator and see no problem for instance in science developing artificial means of gestation or even artificial wombs for transwomen.

This also explains why they actually participate in giving children devastating hormone treatments - it is just part of the war on hated biology.

Goosefoot · 06/08/2019 20:34

Yes, I think that's all part of the psychological process.

I think an interesting link is related to this idea of artificial wombs. There are some feminists who see this as the way forward, making the particularly female reproductive processes something that no longer is necessary, through technology, though I think not many feel that way.

But how different is it to say, feminism or equality is only possible with the availability of reliable technology to prevent pregnancy? And many feminists embrace this, to the point many see it as a cornerstone of women's rights. But it's simply another way to modify women's biology to make it, at least superficially, similar to men's experience.

This has caused us to develop a very particular vision of what equality means, one based on men, that sees nature as somehow having given us the sort end of the stick, as if nature is itself anti-feminist. But if nature and feminism are opposed, than women and feminism must also be opposed.

I wonder if there wasn't a serious error in this, right at the beginnings of second wave feminism.

Imnobody4 · 06/08/2019 20:56

This has caused us to develop a very particular vision of what equality means, one based on men, that sees nature as somehow having given us the sort end of the stick, as if nature is itself anti-feminist.
I've always thought it was the opposite. Feminism means the biological reality of women and children should be as central to society and power etc as men's biology. It shouldn't be seen as a limitation.

Goosefoot · 07/08/2019 00:29

It could mean that, but I don't think that's really the road that it's taken, for the most part. Even in radical feminism.

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