20 lesbophobic things my male friends have said to me.

[DJLippy]

makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/20-lesbophobic-things-my-male-friends-have-said-to-me

Amy Dyess writes for Make More Noise

"Male friendships are tricky, no matter what a man’s orientation is. As you can see, many straight and bi male friends are really trying to hook up. Gay men project their own fears onto lesbians. Gay men have also groped me in dark, sweaty gay bars. Lesbians have to be careful around all men." my emphasis

This by a Woman in 2019 after her experience around male friends!

Is there any reason to believe only Lesbians have to be careful around all men?

"Women fail to understand how much men hate them."

This by a Woman in 1970!

But when you say men hate women or even worse I hate men.

There will be plenty of women here and irl who do not accept that men hate women but will tell me, you are being just as bad saying you hate men!

In a democratic country, if women unite, they can make sure feminist analysis of men’s and women’s behaviour is properly accounted for, so that Police do not ignore Women’s abuse and the rapist does not go free because a woman froze in the moment and did not scream out.

To my mind it is the rampant unpunished abuse and killing of women, which allows Patriarchy to continue. If all men were punished for abusing and killing of women, Patriarchy would fall in our lifetime.

Just to be clear, I guarantee that Amy Dyess would agree that all women have to be careful around all men but it is the unconscious phrasing that allows men to get away with it, even more.

All women have to be careful around men, but lesbians suffer a particular kind of abuse linked to their homosexuality that I as a heterosexual woman do not.

Amy Dyess is excellent at explaining that particular variety of abuse to non-lesbians. I have learned much from her.

Arnold
"All women have to be careful around men, but lesbians suffer a particular kind of abuse linked to their homosexuality that I as a heterosexual woman do not."

Is this referring to the gaslighting of the Lesbians, so they support the Born This Way narrative?

The Born This Way narrative is the way, all men convince Lesbians that this will stop men and have a second thought about raping them. If you did not have the Born This Way narrative, all men will rape “lesbians” because they are not really “lesbians”.

However given that there are a billion “reasons” all women (lesbians or otherwise) are raped without being punished - this an another case, where men are getting away it.

Everybody thinks (women and men and Arnold) that it is nice that there are some men who have a second thought and stop themselves and do not rape a lesbian for correcting her lesbian ways!!

But Letting men getting away with Billions of Rapes that happen anyway – whether the woman is a lesbian or not!

If women (and men) were to make sure all abuse and rapes were punished, Lesbians by definition will get the protection from “corrective” rape.

Born This Way narrative was invented by men so that, it allowed a physically weaker man to refuse another man’s enthusiastic offer of his penis in a un-homophobic way.

As far as men are concerned there is no concept of Heterosexuality or Homosexuality. Nature has made men to shag everything all the time. Society has to by force stop him from mass raping everything – men, children, animals, pies etc etc. (but notice – no stop in mass raping of women)

Male Homosexuality was made legal again in many countries on the strict condition that physically weaker men can still have the legal protection to refuse an enthusiastic man’s penis in a un-homophobic way because homosexuals are Born This Way. So men who offer their penis to other men without consent still face the full wrath and power of all men.

As Women are not known to be enthusiastically offering their vaginas to other women, there is no “real” benefit to Lesbians in the Born This Way narrative.

Only the luckiest Born This Way Lesbian is able to be a Real Lesbian!

A girl is not confident in themselves in all matters, 80% of the girls who love and are good at STEM subjects in school do NOT end up with a STEM degree, why would it be different in their sex life?

Given the Patriarchal pressure to date a boy from day one, only the luckiest and confident girl escapes the heterosexual life.

I am not just referring to the born this way narrative, but to the particular aspects of abuse that are specific to lesbians. The 'you haven't met the right man yet', the 'perform for us or we'll beat you up on the bus', the list in the article.

There are many commonalities in male abuse of women that hetero and homosexuals alike suffer, but there are also specific behaviours directed at lesbians that are not directed at straight women. I really don't think it is controversial to recognise that.

Nor is all abuse rape.

Arnold - Thanks for the clarification - sorry, I can not edit the post to take out your name!

Don't worry about it, Mae.

Amy is very clear in her thinking and her writing (and generally awesome). There's is a difference in how men treat lesbians and it's worse than how they treat straight women and she's right to call it out.

Is this referring to the gaslighting of the Lesbians, so they support the Born This Way narrative? The Born This Way narrative is the way, all men convince Lesbians that this will stop men and have a second thought about raping them. If you did not have the Born This Way narrative, all men will rape “lesbians” because they are not really “lesbians”.

The reason that I and many lesbians think homosexuality is innate rather than a choice is not because men have convinced us to think that but because that is our experience. We didn’t choose to feel this attraction – and some of us tried very hard to develop an attraction to the opposite sex including through conversion therapy - but it just wasn’t there for us.

Given the Patriarchal pressure to date a boy from day one, only the luckiest and confident girl escapes the heterosexual life.

This is one of the reasons that I think the prominence of political lesbians in some feminist circles creates a problem for regular lesbians. They haven’t got a clue about growing up gay – about the isolation, fear and self-hatred. Why do they think that so many of the “lucky, confident” lesbian teens are cutting off their breasts and pumping themselves with harmful hormones so that they don’t have to be a lesbian?

Political lesbians (usually bi women) can’t understand this experience – (nor the experience of women who force themselves to have sex with men despite having no attraction to them because admitting what they are is too awful) and it doesn’t fit with their narrative so they don’t want to. They can bypass a lot of the shit of internalised homophobia and isolation because they only choose to identify as lesbians when the circumstances are more favourable – when, because of their beliefs, it is something they want to be and when they enter a supportive feminist community where they are surrounded by other political lesbians. That doesn’t mean they won’t get some shit if they do actually have a relationship with a woman but their experiences are a world away from most lesbians and they automatically miss out on a lot of the challenges lesbians face. That’s why they describe as “lucky” something they’ve never experienced and which for many lesbians will be one of the most difficult times of their lives.

I’m not saying that these women haven’t had difficult lives – I know some women are drawn to radical feminism and political lesbianism precisely because they’ve had particularly awful experiences with men – but their experiences are different from ours. Yet these are the women that, in feminist circles, speak on behalf of us from a narrow, unrepresentative idea of what being a lesbian is. They say (and I think genuinely believe) that they include a wide range of women with many experiences of coming to a lesbian identity - What they mean is they have a lot of women who lived a diverse range of heterosexual lives and came to feminism (and then political lesbianism) by different paths but their version of “being a lesbian” is pretty monolithic and insular and not representative of regular lesbians who won’t have had the privilege of identifying as lesbians only when it suits them in a supportive women-centred environment. They all then reinforce each other that their experience is what being a lesbian is, that it’s a great choice, reassure each other that it’s perfectly normal for lesbians to experience attraction to men and that they don’t need to listen to that other group of lesbians because they are lesbians themselves so can speak with authority on our lives.

"The reason that I and many lesbians think homosexuality is innate rather than a choice is not because men have convinced us to think that but because that is our experience. We didn’t choose to feel this attraction – and some of us tried very hard to develop an attraction to the opposite sex including through conversion therapy - but it just wasn’t there for us."

Just because of “lived experience” and “didn’t choose” make something innate – otherwise we have to accept the trans women as women for the same parallel “lived experience” etc reasons.

Science has not proved any biological / innate reasons for racism / intelligence / male violence etc for any other human behaviour but conveniently has supposedly found an innate reason for homosexuality!!!

As we have seen on the question of trans detransitions, research is funded on a political basis that helps men.

"Why do they think that so many of the “lucky, confident” lesbian teens are cutting off their breasts and pumping themselves with harmful hormones so that they don’t have to be a lesbian?"

Confused by this – does this not support the point that Patriarchy does not want girls to feel happy about feeling attraction to another girl, so in most cases, the girl accepts the path to forced heterosexuality or if she has the confidence in her innate attraction to girls, fights this Patriarchal pressure with great cost and suffering - as you describe.

However in the last few years these girls have the Patriarchy’s support to keep the attraction to other girls by turning into boys (for the price of her breasts etc).

The word luckiest is used in the sense that Patriarchy allows only few girls to be lesbians from a much bigger potential number, sorry if this is not the right way of saying this. I still can not think a better way - sorry again.

Just because of “lived experience” and “didn’t choose” make something innate – otherwise we have to accept the trans women as women for the same parallel “lived experience” etc reasons.

I don't understand what you are getting at. My definition of woman is biological female so transwomen don't have lived experience as a woman and though I agree they didn't choose to be male, they are. Whereas women do have lived experience as women and didn't choose to be women but are women.

Confused by this – does this not support the point that Patriarchy does not want girls to feel happy about feeling attraction to another girl, so in most cases, the girl accepts the path to forced heterosexuality or if she has the confidence in her innate attraction to girls, fights this Patriarchal pressure with great cost and suffering - as you describe.

I think we may just be talking entirely at cross purposes here because we are using the word lesbian to mean different things. You refer to an "innate attraction to girls" and that is exactly what I mean by an innate sexuality - that attraction. I'm aware that some women who are only attracted to females may feel under pressure to have sexual relationships with men but I would still say they were a lesbian and their experiences of forcing themselves to have sex with a man is different from a straight woman's experiences of having relationships with men.

I would define the words as follows:

• Lesbian - a woman who is only attracted to women
• Bisexual - a woman who is attracted to both men and women
• Heterosexual - a woman who is only attracted to men

And those definitions would apply regardless of behaviour (e.g. a bisexual woman who is in a monogamous relationship with a man is still bisexual)

From what I can work out, I think political lesbians define a lesbian as a woman who either has sex with women or at least abstains from sex with men, regardless of actual attractions (and I've seen several say that they are attracted to men but hate them.)

"transwomen don't have lived experience as a woman"

We have to be careful, if you give men a foot in the door, they will push and push, why do you think they are pushing 3 year olds to be diagnosed as trans (men claim this as innate).
They have convinced (sadly) real lesbians that, there is such a thing as a Lesbian Penis already, men are evil and clever. To my mind women have to unite for proved facts and science for such judgements, lets keep the door firmly closed against accepting “lived experience” as proof of anything.

Lesbians by choice

Just to be clear, I repeat the only real evidence for men is that they want to shag everything, for men there is no concept of innate homosexuality or heterosexuality. Of course there are men who truly believe they are homosexual and would die for it but I consider this same as a man believing he is a great artist and would die for it.

As still in 2019 all countries are Patriarchal, which makes Heterosexuality the path of least resistance for women, we therefore do not know what would be women’s free behaviour, in a modern non Patriarchal Society. Whether there would be more Lesbians / Bisexuals or less or same as under Patriarchy.
Would you accept that for women (in general) a heterosexual relationship is more toxic compared to a Lesbian relationship?
Would you agree it helps Patriarchy to have fewer Lesbians then more? To my mind it helps Patriarchy that there are less Lesbians then more for oblivious reasons.

What would be your objection for there to be more Real and Political Lesbians if there was no harmful consequence of more “corrective rape” etc?

To my mind it is this threat of men’s abuse of Lesbians that keeps the Born This Way narrative supported by Lesbians.
However we have now seen that men have found a loophole with the Stonewall approved Lesbian Penis! Would you accept that Born This Way narrative is bypassed by the concept of the Lesbian Penis and does not stop men raping lesbians? “Corrective Rape” has been given a new name of a gender-affirming act.

To my mind the Born This Way narrative stops there being more Real and Political Lesbians (and more real and political Bisexuals), the continued support of this narrative by Lesbians and other women only results in more women being forced into a heterosexual life to the benefit of men and Patriarchy.

Of course The Born This Way narrative is still essential for Men's safety so the chance of this being thrown away for women's benefit is zero. But I hope you still make an argument here for how it benefits women.

oblivious reasons

obvious reasons

Society has to by force stop him from mass raping everything – men, children, animals, pies etc etc.

This is true @MaeWest1890 . And why do they stick all manner of weird things up their arses too?!

I'm kind of foot in both camps here. I'm slowly coming to terms with the realities of my sexuality, and that much of what I've experienced has been abusive conditioning towards heterosexuality, in complete opposition to my natural inclination towards same sex attraction.

So I can't discount the 'born this way' narrative, because I do think that if I hadn't been subjected to an overwhelmingly heterosexual culture, a faith that condemned same sex love, and conversion therapy that went as far as 'corrective' rape, I may have had a chance to live a happily homosexual existence.

But, I know that all things are not equal, and that if I manage to disentangle myself now from all that history, there wouldn't be an awful lot of difference between myself and a political lesbian who has perhaps made a slightly freer choice to embrace women.

I don't know. Still working it through.

JustARegularLesbian

I'm what you might call the dreaded political lesbian. But I think it might be a bit more complicated than either/or.

It's true I didn't experience any of the self loathing that you describe, the kind that is leading girls to get mastectomies. I had the usual garden variety self loathing of girls- I desperately wanted a boob job when I was 15.

But for sure I had lesbian attraction and leanings but I feel the pressure to be heterosexual was immense. For example I thought from an early age it was a perfectly normal and natural thing to want to raise a baby with another girl. That would've been my absolute ideal. So when I married a man I felt like I'd really taken a hit, because I felt like I was doing the right thing but it was so far removed from what I perceived as the ideal.

I don't know if my experience is typical but I don't think you can be a political lesbian if you don't also have attraction to women, or if it wasn't latent. Hand on heart, I am no longer attracted to men.

If it helps - if you know any thing about modern Hindu arranged marriages in modern Britain on a mass scale, attraction and real love do not have to be instant at first site.

Attraction and real love can come after you have chosen your partner based on political choice, friendship, mutual interest etc etc.

Isn't being able to be attracted to someone on the basis of their personal characteristics, regardless of their sex, bisexuality though?

I've met a number of bisexual women in the feminist movement who are in long-term relationships with men but are very vocal about being bi - which is fine because they are attracted to both sexes, even though they are in a monogamous relationship with a man. But whenever one of them does enter a relationship with a woman, they identify as a lesbian and speak on behalf of lesbians. It's inconsistent and it is only 'lesbian' which is the vague, anything-goes term which we aren't allowed to have boundaries on, otherwise we are 'gate-keeping' and not being inclusive. It's the same in the queer community (even leaving aside the trans issue) - except there you can still be in a relationship with a man and be a lesbian because it's an inclusive umbrella term apparently.

Well, there are reasons why a lesbian would be unable to extricate herself from a heterosexual relationship, but she would still be a lesbian. I know what you're saying about women in that situation not trying to speak over other lesbians, but it does happen and doesn't necessarily mean the woman is bisexual and trying to get status or whatever.

It's inconsistent and it is only 'lesbian' which is the vague, anything-goes term which we aren't allowed to have boundaries on, otherwise we are 'gate-keeping' and not being inclusive. It's the same in the queer community (even leaving aside the trans issue) - except there you can still be in a relationship with a man and be a lesbian because it's an inclusive umbrella term apparently. 

Totally get this. I don't know if I was always a lesbian but groomed into heterosexuality (which is possible) or if I'm bi, ( even though I no longer fancy men).

My experience is of course different from women who have always known they were lesbian, and who perhaps slept with men to get the gay out of them but realize it's not going to work and they are lesbian. I'm not going to speak over women who have always known they're lesbian and claim my experience is the same.

I do however know a woman, a musmnetter actually, who was married to a man and had kids by him all the while knowing she was a lesbian. I believe her when she says she's a lesbian.

What I will say is that there's a couple of lesbians in my town who have a habit of "turning" straight women. They're known for it. Regard it as a conquest type thing.

No, I do agree that sometimes lesbians, particularly young lesbians, are pressured into entering relationships with men. From hearing the experiences of lesbians who've been through this, it is a very different experience from being a bisexual woman who has had sexual relationships with men she is attracted to (even if those relationships are negative - e.g. abusive).

I remember hearing about a comphet support group which was for women overcoming compulsory heterosexuality and trying to leave relationships with men and embrace relationships with women. From what I've heard from women involved, although there were some common experiences in terms of the societal influence to enter heterosexual relationships overall it pretty much divided into two groups with opposing experiences, which created a bit of tension.

One group of women were exclusively same-sex attracted and had often married men that they were very fond of (ie good friends with, really liked as a person) and had really really tried to develop feelings of love and attraction for them. Often they felt really guilty that they didn't feel that attraction for them and were torn between seeking love/desire in their life while really not wanting to hurt their husband (and disrupt the kids).

The other group were women who had fallen in love/lust with men but had had bad experiences, knew they had some latent attraction for women and hated men so wanted to move on to relationships with women. (I don't know whether they were all planning to re-name themselves as lesbians but I'm sure some would).

I've also heard lesbians talk about their experiences of forcing themselves to have sex with men and their various strategies for coping with it or zoning out of the experience. I've then (occasionally) heard of political lesbians who 'slip up' and have sex with a man because they are sexually attracted to males (but reassure themselves that they hated him afterwards and had no desire to have a relationship with him so they must be a lesbian).

I just think that there needs to be a word for women who are only attracted to other women, and that it's not really helpful to only have a blurry term that covers both lesbian and bi women.

That was in response to FloralBunting

Without a doubt. I've really struggled with saying I am a lesbian because of all sorts of messed up internal stuff, but I am also reticent to do so because of still being in a heterosexual relationship that I am not in a position to exit and I'm aware of the 'optics' that creates.

What makes me so cross is that the difficult nuances involved in this issue, which is a women's issue, and primarily about being able to set our boundaries as tight as we like for our own reasons, is being distorted by men who believe themselves to be lesbians and insert themselves into issues that are nothing to do with them. At the end of the day; have penis = opinion on lesbians irrelevant. Think lesbians should accept penis for any reason whatsoever? Simply wrong.