Have you ever converted a misogynist?

[IABUQueen]

Have you ever had a positive influence on a misogynist (man or woman) and it resulted in positive results ? With them changing their thinking and adopting a more fair view of gender differences ?

Could you please share your experience?

If it's a man I don't think it's possible. I think 100% of men don't really understand feminism, or what on earth feminists are going on about, although some do try, then those ones end up sort of becoming epic mansplainers of it, sometimes even going as far as mansplaining it to women.

Not really sure about misogynistic women, that's a hard one to pin down. Some women are misogynistic in the sense they think what feminists are saying is stupid because the theory is by women, and women are saying it. If you get a man to say exactly the same thing, it's possible the misogynistic women will listen to him.

Ok ok maybe a simpler question

Has anyone converted a woman hater/self loathing female into someone a bit more fair and neutral willing to stop degrading women?

They don’t have to become a feminist activist who understand the ins and outs but perhaps they have to be more willing to open their ears and want to be fair?

I've tried so hard to get my misogynistic friend to understand and have given up. He hasn't lived life as a woman so it is pointless. You can't "convert" someone that hasn't lived it. You can only try to reason. He's not open to reason.

Why are they soooo passionate at hating women?? What their issue??

I’m faced with a misogynist who almost is obsessive at dedicating their lives to blame women for everything wrong in this world... everything wrong in their lives... they’re kind and lovely when they want to be but have moments where they obsessively have a need to put down the female population..

What’s the route of all this rubbish?

I want to know for my own sake. I want it to stop hurting my feelings and want to rise above it. I want to be able to stop being triggered and stop being angry.

I did know a woman who hated women , and despised them for being weak.
How can you reason with someone who admits women's status is dirt, so has some degree of awareness of women's lot, but lacks the analysis to realize she is included in that? Massive cognitive dissonance

OP, I think in your case it sounds like it could come from some specific experience or set of experiences. I've met people who were similar and it often seems to come from some sort of exposure to a toxic individual, during childhood generally. I might try and find out what that's about, if you can it might suggest a way forward.

DH wasn't a misogynist but he had been raised to be profoundly sexist. He has moved a long way in the last 25 years, I think maybe having a dd has been a very useful thinking point for him.
Nowadays ds usually pulls him up on making a sexist comment before I do. He is super switched on the gender stereotypes etc, to be honest I'm rather surprised how much he must have listened to me over the last ten years.

I’m not convinced that misogynists ever change their thinking.
They might pay lip service to feminist ideas and obey equality legislation, but I suspect you’d be appalled if you could read their actual thoughts.
Having to be civilised in public may even make them worse, as their resentment simmers in private. Hence perhaps the rise in violent porn, choking, anal, etc - it’s a private vent for suppressed male hatred of women making any kind of social progress.

I doubt you'll be able to change an actual misogynist, ie someone who hates women.

Sexists on the other hand can have their views changed because they don't hate women, so are open to reason.

I have in the past managed to change sexist men's views on sexual harassment for example. So when discussing the sort of common place groping type incidents that virtually every woman has experienced when a man says 'but I never see that' I have pointed out that no, I don't suppose you do. Creeps generally know their behaviour is out of order so tend not to do it in full view of other men lest those other men decide to intervene. Creeps are generally cowards and unwilling to take on other men. So your perception as a man will inevitably be different to mine as a woman. I have had this conversation with several men and had it result in a 'lightbulb moment' from them.

But those men were not misogynists. They don't hate women. They're sexist at times but not full of rage.

On an individual level I think it better to work on the sexists than waste time (and potentially endanger yourself) by trying to persuade real haters. The only way to change misogyny is via collective, legislative and educational action.

I don’t know if I’ve ever converted a misogynist, I’m not sure that’s possible. I don’t think it’s possible to use reason to argue someone out of a position that they didn’t arrive at through reason.

However, I do know that I’ve helped a lot of men to understand more about what misogyny is because they have told me and written to me. I don’t want to blow my cover on here but I wrote a book about misogyny aimed at a popular audience. Most of these men were at least predisposed to picking up the book and reading it but they all express surprise at how bad it really is and they ask things like, what should I say to my daughter about this or what can I do to help. This has restored my faith in men somewhat.

Good point about the difference between those who are sexist and haven't thought things through and those who are actually misogynistic.

People rarely change deeply held views overnight. It's usually a slow process that requires several conversations over a period of time. The message might eventually sink in, especially if they see a family member or someone they are close to experience something similar.
Humans in general tend not to care much about most things until it affects them personally in some way.

I do know a few men and women who have changed, but I think of their own accord.
Men who sniggered and made rape type jokes when younger (20s), a few women too actually.
Women who criticise other women as "slags" or whatever.
Now in their 40s, they are more mature and would never do these things, in fact call others out on it.
But I assume it's a part of growing up and starting to empathise with others.
In the same way many people might have told racist jokes at school and are now horrified that they did that when older.
But I doubt you can change someone who isn't ready or willing to change.

I’m not convinced that misogynists ever change their thinking.
They might pay lip service to feminist ideas and obey equality legislation, but I suspect you’d be appalled if you could read their actual thoughts.
Having to be civilised in public may even make them worse, as their resentment simmers in private. Hence perhaps the rise in violent porn, choking, anal, etc - it’s a private vent for suppressed male hatred of women making any kind of social progress.

This makes so much sense @Babdoc and it's so utterly utterly depressing. I'm so sick of living in a society that thinks this way about women. These sites that allow abuse need to be shut down. Maybe it time for feminism to change? Think about it, if men want something they take it. They sabotage, they go to war, they colonise. They do whatever the fuck they want to get their way. Meanwhile, we're here making reasonable arguments why they should allow us rights and treat us respectfully. I'm not criticising feminists (I also do this on twitter) and am extremely grateful to the intelligent, brave feminists who've got us this far and who continue to fight women's corner but the fuckers don't listen to reason they enjoy having the power and won't relinquish it.

In terms of women being misogynistic it is perhaps a good idea to question why we sometimes react the way we do.

In reaction to rape cases for example we often see victim blaming behaviour from women as well as men but the reasons behind the behaviour are perhaps not the same.

For women it is perhaps a defence mechanism. That could never happen to me because I don't dress like that, behave like that, go to those places, hang out with those people. A psychological distancing because the alternative, which they know deep inside, is that there is nothing they can do to protect themselves and it could just as easily be them and to function in society you have to be able to push those fears aside, somehow, or we'd all be basket cases.

It is understandable when such behaviour is labelled misogynistic but I'm not sure it's helpful as I suspect such behaviour is born not of hatred of other women but of self preservation.

Perhaps older women have more confidence and are more able to admit their fears and therefore stop such behaviour?

(please note I am not an expert just writing down thoughts that have occurred to me over the years)

However, I do know that I’ve helped a lot of men to understand more about what misogyny is because they have told me and written to me. I don’t want to blow my cover on here but I wrote a book about misogyny aimed at a popular audience. Most of these men were at least predisposed to picking up the book and reading it but they all express surprise at how bad it really is and they ask things like, what should I say to my daughter about this or what can I do to help. This has restored my faith in men somewhat.

Ohhh I’m going to start searching all over amazon :D.

I wonder if any men on here managed to get through to another man about their misogynistic views?

I just don’t understand why some misogynistic men have such a big audience even though a lot of the time it’s obvious their arguments are all emotive and make no sense .

For women it is perhaps a defence mechanism.

I’m not sure.. the worst misogynistic women I have met seems to be that way because it gives them a competitive advantage with misogynistic men.. it makes them sound more “feminine” and earns them more respect in that crowd.

Yes some might be scared and reactive and perhaps brainwashed, but these don’t seem to be the influential ones..

Its my theory though

You may well be right, IABUQueen and there are no doubt a million different reasons why women are misogynists.

Sometimes seeking advantage types remind me of the old adage that 'I don't have to outrun the lion, I only have to outrun you'. They throw other women to the wolves so it isn't them getting it in the neck

I wonder whether misogynist men are conscious that airing their thoughts out loud is offensive to many women around them? Or do they grow numb to their own disrespect because of growing around misogynist women who clap for them.

I just don’t understand why some misogynistic men have such a big audience even though a lot of the time it’s obvious their arguments are all emotive and make no sense

It's confirmation bias.

None of the misogynists are basing their views on sound logic - they're based on hatred. So when someone comes along and validates their feelings with an argument, any argument, they're going to take it.

Personally, I would stop spending time with someone who's got those kind of views, OP - you can argue till you're blue in the face but it sounds really stressful and depressing.

If you are in a position of influence and you see a mesogynist making statements that clearly have a misogynist agenda, to a bunch of youth that look up to him... would you not point out the stupidity?

Trying to do it in a calm understanding way but struggling not to be worked up.

I remember there was an article on the news about whistling and cat calling from builders etc being classed as harassment. An older man acquaintance I was talking to brought it up and told me that it wasn't harassment, they were just admiring women etc. I said, "But you wouldn't shout after a woman that way would you? (and he wouldn't) Why not?" Lightbulb moment. Crazy that it had to be spelled out to him this way.

If you are in a position of influence and you see a mesogynist making statements that clearly have a misogynist agenda, to a bunch of youth that look up to him... would you not point out the stupidity?

It wouldn't be about the stupidity though, as that would, as you say, require the misogynist seeing the error of their ways.

In this situation it would be more about pointing out the harm they are doing to women, and calling them out on it, either to their superiors (e.g. if we're taking about a youth group) or publicly (e.g. if we're talking twitter or some other unofficial capacity). It's not so that they stop being a misogynist (as you'll have very little control over that), it's so that they stop pushing those views on kids, surely?

I think it was the issue of the bank notes a few years back, and putting more women on them. I remember thinking at first glance “what’s the problem the Queen is always on them?” Read some of the arguments which weren’t in any way unreasonable, then watched such hateful responses to that reasonable request it did highlight for me there was a problem.

Plus I think reading a lot of posts here has influenced my thinking on a range of issues. Wether you’d define me as a misogynist before that or indeed still would is arguable.

Meanwhile, we're here making reasonable arguments why they should allow us rights and treat us respectfully.

Oh god no, I gave up on that a long time ago. When I had a feminist blog I had to exclude all men from commenting. They'll never ever see and they'll never ever get it. It's very disheartening but once you understand that that's the way it is it's easy to move on and out energies elsewhere: it's kind of liberating.

The fact that every single man on the blog without any exception ( and there were tens of thousands over the years) never "got it" made me wonder that they're probably pretending to get it irl to keep the peace with the women in their lives

Sakura I disagree I don’t view men in that way. I don’t think most of them are women haters. Yes many of them are socialized to not see the sexism but misogyny isn’t the norm amongst men except the few.

The case in question is of someone coming from an extremely abusive childhood. After doing some reading it seems common that misogyny stems from childhood trauma...

I really want to believe that a vulnerable child who formed wrong emotional opinions about women due to his upbringing, can have a second chance at understanding things better once he is less defenseless.

M