Building families through surrogacy: A new Law - Consultation

[FannyCann]

Building families through surrogacy: A new Law - Consultation

Last Tuesday I attended one of several public consultation events around the country to hear discussion of the proposals and recommendations to the government regarding new laws to regulate surrogacy. Now I am opposed to surrogacy in all forms and wish Britain would follow other European countries such as Switzerland, France, Germany and Sweden in banning it. However our government and the department of heath take a different view:

“Our project does not seek to examine whether or not surrogacy should be allowed. Instead, we take as our starting point that surrogacy is an accepted form of building a family, as recognised by the Department of Health and Social Care in the guidance it publishes on surrogacy arrangements”

So in the spirit of examining how the laws should be reformed I thought it would be helpful to have a new thread devoted to this discussion - there have been quite a few threads where the rights and wrongs of surrogacy have been discussed and I have voiced my opposition. Now I think we should look at the fine detail of the proposals and support and advise anyone who wants to contribute to the discussion by responding to the consultation.

Links:

Summary of the consultation paper, a shorter overview of the proposals.

https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/lawcom-prod-storage-11jsxou24uy7q/uploads/2019/06/Surrogacy-summary.pdff_

The full consultation paper, all 502 pages, not for the faint hearted! Disclaimer - I haven’t worked my way through it all yet either!

https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/lawcom-prod-storage-11jsxou24uy7q/uploads/2019/06/Surrogacy-consultation-paper.pdff_

Link to respond to the consultation - at the event one of the organisers stressed that all answers are welcomed and don’t feel you have to answer all the questions. Just answer some if you want to.

https://consult.justice.gov.uk/law-commission/surrogacyy_

Or you can email comments to:

“However, we are happy to accept comments in other formats. If you would like to a response form in word format, do email us to request one. Please send your response:
By email to [email protected]k_
OR
By post to Surrogacy Team, Law Commission, 1st Floor, Tower, 52 Queen Anne’s Gate, London, SW1H 9AG.
If you send your comments by post, it would be helpful if, whenever possible, you could also send them by email.
If you have any questions, you can contact the team at: [email protected] “

Back to Tuesday. I have name changed as anyone who was there will know who I am. I left work at lunchtime planning to catch a train that would get me to Cardiff with plenty of time to cross the square from the train station to attend the event starting at 4pm. But it was a very hot day. Successive announcements warned that the train would be delayed by 12, 18, 36, 48 minutes...I contemplated abandoning the trip and going swimming. We got on the train (dd had decided it would be interesting to come with me), and soon we were told the train would be terminating for maintenance and we had to change. So...three trains later I staggered into the meeting room, extremely hot and sweaty, having somehow acquired a generous smear of black grease from one
of the trains all down the front of my dress, and the only seats available were at the front🥵!

The presentation had just finished and questions were starting. Of course I was very disappointed to have missed the presentation however the slides on the screen were of the twenty four pages of the summary paper linked above which I had printed off and read so although I missed the wider explanation I have an idea what the previous hour had covered.

From the questions raised referenced by some of the screenshots:

There was discussion of the proposed new pathway, which will include legal advice for the surrogate and the intended parents, and “implications” counselling for the surrogate, her family and intended parents.

A hopeful intended parent disagreed with compulsory legal advice on the grounds that she was a solicitor and didn’t need it. A recent surrogate mother disagreed with compulsory counselling as she knew what she had done and didn’t need it.

Both of these points were politely dismissed by the person presenting the proposals. And I absolutely agree with him. If anything these views demonstrated to me how these provisions absolutely need to be compulsory and I was surprised that two apparently intelligent and thoughtful people would not see that these proposals are to provide protection for other people who may be less well informed.

There was discussion around the payments and costs. I queried compensation for death of the surrogate. It was suggested that intended parents would be expected to pay for life insurance for the surrogate.

I also raised the matter of egg donors, as they appeared not to have been mentioned. We were informed that payment for egg donors is capped at £750 in the UK.

Thinking about it since the event, shouldn’t egg donors have some sort or health/sickness/life insurance too?
Ovarian hyper stimulation syndrome is a well known complication and can be life threatening in 1-2 % of cases.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/ovarian-hyperstimulation-syndrome-ohss/symptoms-causes/src-203546977_

Also I have been looking at some American donor egg bank sites online. Payments are significantly higher over there, especially for young women with sought after genetic traits (high IQ, athletic prowess, beauty etc). Payments may be as much as $10,000.
I have no idea if it is legal but if I was looking to make money from my eggs a holiday in the USA and a substantial payment looks a lot more attractive that £750!

Discussion moved onto the question of payments to the surrogate. The surrogates in the room were very clear, the commercial model of the USA, where surrogates may be paid around $40,000 is not welcome in the UK. The presenter was in agreement. One surrogate mentioned the type of punitive contracts used in the USA and absolutely rejected the possibility of signing such a contract.
So surrogacy should remain altruistic with just payments for expenses covered, this was generally agreed.

However I have been thinking about this more over the past few days and it seems to be a bit of a conundrum. Look at the proposed pathway and think about the number of services and professionals involved along the way, all of whom will have a commercial interest in surrogacy:

Lawyers
Counsellors
Private fertility clinics
Egg donors - at least for £750
Insurance companies
Surrogacy agencies
Possibly advertisers if this is made legal

All of these people have skin in the game and will be profiting from each surrogate pregnancy. The intended parents get their baby. And the surrogate? Some redundant maternity clothes, a few more stretch marks and a warm fuzzy feeling at having given the most generous gift of life.

That just doesn’t sit right with me. Maybe I am just too selfish, too close minded, too unimaginative to understand why someone would want to go through nine months of pregnancy and birth for someone else. But I hate to feel ripped off and taken advantage of. And I can’t wrap my mind around the principle of a whole industry (the presenter mentioned they expected a growth in numbers) predicated on a steady supply of generous individuals who are the only people in the chain who make no profit.

The only comparable situation I can think of is altruistic kidney donation, which is uncommon but some people do it. I’m not sure exactly how one would go about it but I would think in the uk approaching the national transplant organisation would put you in touch with your nearest transplant centre, they would do medical and psychological assessments and if all was well make arrangements. It would all be in house, within the nhs, absolutely no profit anywhere, of that I am sure.

Incidentally the questions raised about making counselling and legal advice compulsory seemed to be rooted in trying to keep costs to a minimum for the intended parents. Which seemed to miss the point of these recommendations somewhat.

I have no answer for this - commercial, with substantial payment to the surrogate v altruistic with payment of expenses only to the surrogate but lots of side players profiting along the way. It is definitely something I will mention in my reply to the consultation.

So to wrap up, there were one or two people present who I suspected could be mumsnetters - one woman mentioned the rights of the child, the “quiet voice” of the baby which was the silent voice in the room. Another woman drilled down some statistics that had been mentioned in the presentation that I missed so I couldn’t comment except to say she was tenacious and had a sound mathematical mind which put the presenter at a distinct disadvantage. Well done her.

I may or may not have caused outrage with one or two grenades I lobbed - least said the better 😉

Which reminds me, I am not happy with a proposed minimum age for surrogates of 18. Yes, as someone said, it is the age of adult majority, and the presenter said it was unlikely in reality that an 18 year old would be accepted, but still....

There are more public events to come, and the screenshot I have shown doesn’t include the Scottish ones - Edinburgh on 9 September, Aberdeen 10 September, another London event is planned, date to be confirmed. You can search for events on Eventbrite, look for “Building families through surrogacy” and they come up.

Also the closing date for the consultation says previously said 27 September but seems to have been extended to 11 October on some of the information, probably best to email directly if you have queries about this.

So I hope this thread can be a useful result rice for anyone be interested in commenting on the proposals and looking at how the new law may pan out. I know many of us get heated about the rights and wrongs of surrogacy but I think it would be helpful to keep those discussions on other threads and keep this one centred on the proposals for new laws in the UK.

Surrogacy UK are a pro surrogacy organisation that have contributed to the consultation.

surrogacyuk.org/aboutus/surroref/law-commissions-consultation/

Among proposals they are keen on is allowing "double donation " ie where there is no genetic link.
I would like someone to explain how it differs to commission a woman, and pay her, to carry a baby unrelated to you via ivf/surrogacy or to agree to buy a baby unrelated to you after it has been born from some random woman who doesn't want to keep or is happy to sell the baby she is carrying?

Also the double donation we are told will on,y be for "medical" reasons. Don't be fooled. Join the dots.
Which group of people in particular will be medically infertile as they come to adulthood?

What do we know about there being a pregnancy where you have no genetic link? I know the mother has to take anti-rejection drugs - isn't this more likely to result in a miscarriage and a subsequent mental health impact on the mother, do we know what taking anti rejection drugs long term does to your body?

Interview with Jennifer Lahl, I think it starts about 8 minutes in. She talks about how research is beginning to come through and how pregnancies where the surrogate mother has no genetic connection to the implanted embryo is at increased risk, and the body will try to reject it.
There are many risks. Also the commissioning parents often seem to go for a multiple pregnancy, paying a bonus for twins sort of a bogoff arrangement but this further increases the risks to both the mother and the babies.

<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.dailysignal.com/2019/05/23/the-surrogacy-risks-the-media-wont-cover/" target="_blank">https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/05/23/the-surrogacy-risks-the-media-wont-cover/

As an ex midwife I fine this aspect particularly abhorrent. Purposely seeking/risking a multiple birth to ensure more babies for their bucks, despite the excess risk for mother and babies.
I saw the Eggsploitation and Big Fertility docs, I’m glad I’m out of it all now. I was horrified. I hadn’t previously clocked the issues with the mother having no genetic link to the babies increasing the risk of eg preeclampsia.

Hi @9years Ex midwife here too.

I've been doing a lot of reading and researching this last 2-3 months since I heard about the consultation. I didn't expect to be more shocked than I have been by previous high profile cases and other information I had read but reading a lot in a short space of time brings it home how truly terrible and how widespread the abuses going on are. I've just read Broken Bonds by Jennifer Lahl which is a really upsetting read. It's hard to believe people can behave so callously.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Broken-Bonds-Surrogate-Mothers-Speak/dp/1925581551/ref=sr11_2?keywords=Broken+bonds+Jennifer+Lahl&qid=1568412337&s=gateway&sr=8-2

Anyway, re the risks to the surrogate mother it's interesting to hear Jennifer Lahl stating the evidence coming through that a surrogate pregnancy in itself is a risk factor for a range of complications.

I'm not sure how much it breaks down to specifically the surrogate pregnancy or to other factors.
From my reading I am shocked how the industry is happy to use mothers with existing risk factors.
So for instance mother in their 40's - which is OK for someone who is having their family late but it's different to choose to use an older surrogate. Then there is the business of multiple pregnancy. I have linked a case from the UK, - a 48 year old carrying twins for her brother!
Also mothers who have had previous LSCS - again it's different to make a personal decision to have another baby after an LSCS, but in my view definitely not on for a surrogate pregnancy, with the increased risks to the mother.

So factors like that will also raise the risks. Over on the surrogacy board someone is enquiring about being a surrogate when she previously had obstetric cholestasis. Madness.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/27/secret-diary-of-a-surrogate-mother

Another thing I would be very interested to know, and I doubt anyone is gathering the information because it involves poor women in poor countries and an exploitative industry that isn't interested in maternal welfare and wouldn't want its dirty little secrets recorded.

But most of the Asian mothers used are likely to be of relatively small stature compared to the western commissioning parents - I'd like to know the gestation and birthweight of the babies born and how many are vaginal deliveries/complicated deliveries. Embryo implantation is common in the competition horse world, but no one would use a Shetland pony to carry a foal from a horse over twice the size.
I'm sure many of these pregnancies must end badly.

Just caught this on FB. Look at the language

"The babies, who share the same biological mother, were birthed by two different surrogate women and share two dads"

www.ksro.com/2019/09/19/two-dads-welcome-two-babies-born-nine-days-and-hundreds-of-miles-apart/

So three women were involved, one egg donor and two wombs rented out so these two men could have 'twins'.

Women get very little maternity leave in the US, I wonder how long these men will be taking off work to care for their newborns.

I suppose on the plus side they do express gratitude to the surrogate mothers which is a lot more than some do. And their clinic insisted on only implanting single embryos - this offers the best possible outcome for both the surrogate mother and the baby as twin pregnancies are inevitably more problematic and carry increased risk for both mother and baby.

I've been shocked, reading around, how many cases there are where the surrogate mother is intentionally impregnated with two or more embryos, and are paid a bit more for twins (and contracted to have a fetal reduction if there are more than two). All the research suggests throwing in an extra embryo or two doesn't increase chances of a viable pregnancy and in fact it increases risk in so far as a multiple pregnancy is higher risk if the multiple embryos do take.

I'm a little bit intrigued at the hormonal manipulation that must be necessary for both surrogate mothers to have synchronised their cycles for simultaneous implantation...

I do feel however there is a conversation to be had regarding gay men who view women as breeding cows expected to be available for hire as and when necessary.

I'm sure they are lovely fathers but women are not farm animals to be impregnated for breeding to satisfy their wishes.

Adam Kay (gay) sees the rights of gay men to have "fertility" treatment as equal to the rights of two lesbians. But the lesbians probably just needed sperm donation/intrauterine insemination.

The gay men need an egg "donor" who has gone through a difficult and unpleasant ovarian stimulation and egg collection process and then a surrogate mother to carry the baby for nine months, give birth to it and then give it up.

Not equal at all.

And what the hell were a gay male couple doing at an "infertility" gynae clinic?

And what the hell were a gay male couple doing at an "infertility" gynae clinic?

Checking it out for potential breeding cows I imagine. Had at least of them had the reproductive equipment normally seem to at a gynae clinic they wouldn't have had such difficulties.

They must have had a spare buck or two to pay for two surrogates at once, with all the costs that go with that, as well as the travel costs being they were so far apart.

I also thought of the synchronicity required for two women's cycles to align for this to have happened. The children will appear to be twins but have never shared a womb and will so not have the experience of twins.

Thought I'd post this for anyone who hasn't seen it.

"Guess we won't be using her again" Jeff Lewis and Gage Edwards.

"Her name is Monroe Christine. She is a little girl who was paid for by two men. Her mother was picked out of a catalogue; the woman who gave birth to her was a contractually obligated guest star on a television show who was publicly humiliated by her father."

Poor little Monroe Christine, who will one day grow up to see how her mother was humiliated and used by her fathers.

www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/06/her-name-is-monroe-christine

Really heartbreaking story - poor Monroe

I’ve just finished the Testaments by Margaret Atwood. So much of the story is about the brutality of separating mothers from their babies and the heartache that child always feels. So much about the dehumanisation and humiliation of the mothers too that is an intrinsic part of surrogacy. The need for those using the woman to reject the reality of her existence as an equal human being and the mother of the child.

Object now - a UK feminist group have also put together a page on answering the consultation in 5 minutes. Or if you have more time also a 20 minute version.

www.objectnow.org/news/2019/9/10/surrogacy-consultation-uk

Excellent Joan, I'm making slow progress as I do want to personalise my answers but I'll get there.

I've just started The Testaments, it's pretty essential reading to accompany my consultation reply.

I've sent you a DM about the FOIs I've done x

Saturday bump. Just under two weeks to respond.

nordicmodelnow.org/2019/08/30/how-to-respond-to-the-uk-surrogacy-consultation-in-10-easy-minutes/

Ricky Martin announces his pregnancy

www.miamiherald.com/miami-com/miami-com-news/article235622277.html

“We are pregnant” Hmmm, no Ricky, a poor exploited woman is pregnant and has been coerced into agreeing to abandon her own child so that you a rich man, can buy a human being.

Might be worth a listen

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09wpmym

I'm fine with commercial surrogacy and think woman should be paid well to carry a child. But I think both the prospective parents should be screened, as adoptive parents are, as well as the surrogate. The US model of only using women who have completed their own families works well. Most of the surrogates in the US end up being military wives etc. They aren't an exploited group by any means.

Adam Kay has just had 2 babies via surrogates, seemingly 4 months apart.

https://amp.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2023/jun/18/adam-kay-tells-of-life-transformed-by-two-babies

The more I learn about Adam Kay the more I feel for his ex-wife.

LOL. How very prescient I was back in September 2019 @jenandberrys

I knew then it was just a matter of time...

I suppose obstetricians aren't taught about the fourth stage of labour, the mother infant dyad and the primal wound. 🙄