All TRAs should answer for JY

[buttertoasty]

They should, because the movement has been predicated on the lie that something like this wouldn't happen and that people like this don't exist, and it's damn right transphobic to suggest otherwise.

They have given him a platform. And they need to call him out without the pathetic excuse that he isn't trans because he is a predator- trans people can be predators.

Yep. Acceptance without exception. They need to own him. He’s theirs.

Yes, I agree with this.

The Yaniv case is male predatory behaviour, writ large, against both women and girls.

Men who say they are women, and trans pretenders, can be just as predatory, as all the other common-or-garden male abusers of women.

Yes. To paraphrase what ItsAllGoingToBeFine wrote on another thread, Yaniv is either:

Genuinely trans, and highlights how women are still at risk of male predatory behaviour, and in this case trans identity being used to facilitate that (see photo in toilets) or

A dangerous troll, who isn’t really trans, but it highlights how self-id will allow any such dangerous trolls to take advantage of such laws for their own predatory means.

They can’t shy away from it. This is what everyone has been telling them would happen. You’ll never hear them say it though. There will be no apologies or reconsideration. Just dismissal.

[The question over whether gender self-identification] will lead to men raping women” is the wrong one. Men are always going to rape women. The question should be: ‘Will the increase in gender fluidity increase the risk of men masquerading as women?’ Let’s talk about that. Don’t talk to me about self-ID – I’ve spent my life being told I’m not woman enough. It’s about treating people as they want to be treated, and when it causes no disadvantage to me whatsoever, who am I to challenge it?”

Ruth Hunt, May 2019. Yaniv isn’t harming you personally Ruth, so you aren’t going to challenge it?

Presumably you also think that all Christians should have to answer for the Westboro Baptist Church, and all those who initially voted Leave answer for fucking Yaxley Lennon, too?

Religious organisations routinely condemn the Westboro Baptist Church. HTH.

And it should be pointed out that no one thinks Yaniv represents the trans community, but Yaniv’s actions represent the flaws in ideology and subsequent laws made based on such.

@ReanimatedSGB no I don't because not all Christians vehemently claim that no one will do bad things in the name of Christianity. The two situations aren't comparable.

I think all all people who support the notion that TWAW and are in favour of self I.D. should take a long moment of self reflection wrt their participation in enabling the behaviour of not just JY but many, many other people whose used such legislation/ideology to undermine women's sex based rights.

Sadly I don't think they will.

Karen White, should have been a major tipping point but guess what...

They just freewheel back to the "no true Scotsman" défense. Every single time.

It would be laughable if the consequences weren't so tragic.

JY is a "woman" wrt the laws in Canada because they say they are.

JY's motivation for identifying as a "woman" is irrelevant. That's the law.

So yes they should own it, but they won't answer for it because (as far as the woke brigade is concerned) they don't care. Never have. It's just a pedestal from which they can virtue signal and when it gets a bit "wobbly" they bail to the next one like stepping stones over a river.

As much as I'd like to push them in the water and see them swim, they seem to adapt at doing a hop, skip jump to the other side.

The best we will see is a three monkeys approach on the matter whilst they find their "new" cause.

I would not expect all trans individuals to have to call out Yaniv but I would expect trans rights activists that have lobbied hard for self-ID to call out Yaniv. It's an important distinction.

I happen to believe the most aggressive TRAs don't really represent - or make any effort to represent - the needs and concerns of most trans people.

The thing is, is you accept the principle of self-ID, then there isn't any such thing as "fake" trans. If Yaniv says they are a TW, they are a TW. If Ian Huntley says he is a TW, he is a TW.

I’m confused as to why the usual crew aren’t standing up and supporting JY.
Why aren't they shouting from the rooftops about this vile discrimination?

The silence is deafening.

Acceptance without exception

That is what has been repeatedly said so I do expect anyone who has said that or who supports self ID to answer for JY and Karen White and others like them. Absolutely.

If Yaniv says they are a TW, they are a TW. If Ian Huntley says he is a TW, he is a TW.

Which is fine. I'm all for White, Huntley, Yaniv, any male at all, and for that matter any female at all, being free to wear whatever they want, present themselves however they want. Sod gender stereotypes, be a feminine man if you want to and good for you.

But this is exactly what TW are not W and can never be W, and why clear separation has to be made between male/XY who wishfully would like to be a different sex and biological women. They cannot be treated in all ways without exception in the sex they would like to be, because there is no way to separate a transsexual person who has had full surgery and a lifetime of severe gender dysphoria from a male who is sexually aroused by being in women's spaces and being around women in a vulnerable state, or who just plain enjoys predating on women and girls. TWAW just provides any male with a veneer of protection and respectability to predating and sexual offending, a whole full scale of sexual offending. To be ok with this you have to have two core beliefs:

1. men's needs and feelings are automatically superior to women's (ie you see sex differences just fine, but pretend you don't to validate your core belief.)

2. it is ok for women to be unwillingly used as props and tools in a male's fetish and sexual enactments right up to and over the line of offending, and they should not be able to avoid this.

The whole trying to draw a line between 'real trans' and 'fake trans' or even 'transsexual' and 'transgendered' is so far behind us there's no point in looking for it any more. Anyone who was born male needs to be out of single sex women's spaces. They can be trans, crack on, that's great. But they are not women, should not have the legal status of women, and must accept limits and boundaries to how far their wishes and feelings can be validated because women have rights too. Third spaces.

And that is why women having rights is transphobic.

It’s not about Yaniv, it’s about the laws that have been changed because of the campaigning of trans activists, which can be used to possibly coerce women into unwillingly handling male genitalia.

It’s about the fact that women foresaw what would happen when such a bad law was enacted which eroded women’s sex based rights and were called terfs and bigots in return for trying to point out their concerns.

It’s about the fact that this is where legislating literally for trans women are women gets you, and that the “scaremongering transphobia” women have been accused of has been shown to be a very real possibility that adversely affects women after all.

It’s much bigger than yaniv. Yaniv only illustrates how much more vulnerable women are now.

I'd expect (and have heard of many Christians do so) loud condemnation of the Westboro Baptist Church from any Christian, given that everything they stand for is heretical.

I grew up in a minister's house, I grew up with faith (although now have none) and Westboro are widely, and loudly condemned.

Leave voters, they gave Tommy Robinson the platform he has and did nothing to silence his nasty, divisive views. In fact they benefitted from it. So aye, I'd appreciate if Leavers did come out and condemn him, because I'm yet to hear of any in the MSM.

Anyone who has pushed the legislation for trans rights and screamed transphobe at anyone raising legitimate concerns is responsible for the damage done by Yaniv and White and the other sexual predators who have gained access to women and girls because of the current trend to slam anyone who has concerns as transphobic.

The trans rights movement has been hijacked, but there aren't many who will admit it. They are complicit.

I disagree. I think the people who wrote the laws that enabled JY to use the legal system to harass vulnerable women should answer for JY.

We can't stop people believing that the earth is flat, but we can ensure they don't design air traffic control systems.

The only reason that JY was able to this was because JY does not live in a kind, liberal society. JY lives in a misogynistic society that cares more about a man's self esteem than a woman's safety.,

There are individual trans people who have spoken out against self-ID. They are not responsible for Yaniv, White, Dolatowski, Rivers et al.

What proportion of trans people as a whole are against self-ID is unknown. We only know the views of those who speak out. Of those people 'in favour of' voices vastly outweigh 'opposed to'. This is not the case with Christians and the Westboro Baptist Church where the vast majority of Christians who have expressed a view publically have spoken out against the Westboro Baptist Church.

However, I save most of my ire for the nodding dogs in government, media, academia who have been told thousands of times by thousands of people that self-ID is a pervert's charter and have none the less backed it out of arrogance and cowardice. The suffering of Yaniv's victims is on them. As is the suffering of all women and children harmed by self-ID.

Merrymouse, I love your flat Earth/air traffic controllers analogy!
I shall steal it, if that’s ok? It sums up the legislative problem, in the most elegant of nutshells!

The whole trying to draw a line between 'real trans' and 'fake trans' or even 'transsexual' and 'transgendered' is so far behind us there's no point in looking for it any more.

Yep. No such thing as true trans. It's either self ID or it's not.

And if it is, those supporting it are advocating for increased risk for women and girls. No getting around it.

What proportion of trans people as a whole are against self-ID is unknown

but it's not self ID that's the problem, that's just the reductio ad absurdum of any law that introduces the legal fiction that people can change sex. Because if you have to jump through a million hoops or one, you still haven't changed sex.

So Stephen Whittle, Christine Burns, the other founders of Press for Change, the bloody new Labour politicians who allowed themselves to be swayed by nonsense queer theory rhetoric, the BBC and the Guardian with their wilful, blind misogyny, they all bear responsibility for the assaults Karen White carried out on female prisoners.

as JY is doing his thing in Canada I think it's a stretch to put his actions at their door, but there are plenty of examples here to choose from and to hold them responsible for.

and rest assured that I do

All of the above ^^

I do think this is not a self ID issue though, this is a trans ideology issue. If JY was in the UK there would be nothing to stop JY applying for a GRC, and thereby having the legal status to do all the things JY is currently doing. The GRC process does nothing different, just slows things up and provides some gatekeeping. Gatekeeping which the current govt are looking to erase as much as possible to make GRCs much easier and faster to acquire. Also important to remember, a record of sexual offences does not preclude you from being given a GRC.

There is no difference between JY (or KW or Ian Huntley) self IDing or having a GRC. The basic issue stays the same whether or not they have that bit of paper. A male predator now has a cloak of legal rights and protections to insist women service them in the way they choose without right of avoidance or protest, or having their own feelings vulnerabilities and sense of identity equally respected. And males who aren't predators equally have that cloak to insist women service them with pronouns and with pretence regardless of the effect it has on them: it's the same issue. It's merely a question of degree, and that's why the idiots in power are floundering.

In the same way it's impossible to define woman in a way that includes every biological female on the planet without exception and males who would like to be female, it's impossible to put a line down that separates one male who wants to be treated as if they were born female from another male who wants to be treated as if they were born female.

The only way to do this without destroying women's rights and enforcing women as a subculture to males is to be clear that TW is a legally recognised and supported category, fully provided for. And that women is a legally recognised and supported category, fully provided for. And the two categories are clearly separated by the fact of biological sex, which is unalterable, and where sex based provision is a necessity, TW will have separate provision.

And yes, cue the howls of apartheid and back of the bus and other ridiculous stuff as a last ditch attempt to force women to view males as just another kind of women.

it should be pointed out that no one thinks Yaniv represents the trans community, but Yaniv’s actions represent the flaws in ideology and subsequent laws made based on such.

Correct. But as others have said, what Yaniv demonstrates is the massive flaws in the whole notion of self-id - and how dangerous the policy of 'acceptance without exception' has been, because it's led to people like Yaniv driving a coach and horses through safeguarding.

Safeguarding, of course, is routinely entirely ignored the minute the magic word 'trans' is used. It turns out that many of those libraries in America hosting 'draq queen story time' (not that all drag queens are trans, but they appear to get the magic word free pass, too) have completely failed to exercise due diligence and do safeguarding checks on the drag queens. Their defence has been that the events are 'always supervised', but the sight of small kids sitting on and being encouraged in some cases to lie on drag queens is evidence that such 'supervision' is not enough.

The cynic in me says they won't speak out or even have any reasoned discussion on it because it could compromise self ID for them. Also they don't want to admit that we were right all along.

This is why a lot of the ones who are calling him out are just using the using they "he's not trans and therefore not welcome in lgbt" rhetoric.

Honesty I hope that this is what self ID hangs itself by. They can't even claim that JY abused the laws. He used them legitimately, this is what the law enables him to do.

You see every day the lengths some men will go to for sex, the strange objects they use and depraved things that they do. Combine that with some inherent misogyny and grant them free access to girls (yes girls!) and women and wait for the shitstorm to happen. We predicted this from the start and whilst the TRAs have been getting their knickers in a twist over his/their/she DONT MISGENDER women have lost their livelihoods.

I would have thought that in the UK, the current exceptions in the equality act would make it legal to exclude on the basis of natal sex in this situation.

fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights/#jump2

but it's not self ID that's the problem

Well it is in the sense that, as LangCleg points out, there is only self ID. 'Trans' is not a measurable, observable reality. It only exists at all as an ephemeral 'feeling'.

I absolutely agree that the initial legal fiction sets up the problem. If I were dictator in chief I'd be revoking the GRA and making lying about your sex a criminal offence.

For now though I can only work to stop a bad situation becoming worse by asking that the previous gatekeeping be maintained. I don't like it but it's where we're at. For now.

I would have thought that in the UK, the current exceptions in the equality act would make it legal to exclude on the basis of natal sex in this situation.

Yes, UK law does prevent such a situation arising here. [The problem is that the application of these Exceptions are currently voluntary and require 'opt-in'. We women need to campaign to make all t-of the Exceptions mandatory / statutory so that the process becomes one of opt-out.]

See the Explanatory Notes associated with Schedule 3, section 27 [single sex services]

para 738 bullet point 6:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7/4