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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Boris Johnson is the twentieth Prime Minister from Eton

83 replies

Erythronium · 23/07/2019 22:11

On the other hand we've only had two female PMs.

Isn't it time Eton started letting in girls, so they'd have the same chance as all the males to be PM? Those are good odds.

OP posts:
Gone2far · 23/07/2019 22:58

No, I just think State educated MPs (or at least those on the Labour front bench) are equally awful, so I'm not bothered about whether MPs go to Eton or not

Original poster
Erythronium · 23/07/2019 22:58

The question was whether we've had too many men as Prime Minister. I say yes.

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Original poster
Erythronium · 23/07/2019 23:00

Nobody bothered about BJ apparently being a domestic abuser?

Feminism?

Feminism?

Bueller?

OP posts:
Gone2far · 23/07/2019 23:01

And, as far as I know, Boris ' girlfriend is still living with him and hasn't pressed charges. Jo Swinson has stated that twaw. It might not bother you, but I think it is bad for women. JP and AR are (imo) stupid.

Bingit · 23/07/2019 23:05

You won't answer me and I'll tell you why. You don't want that job, I doubt it appeals to you. It also doesn't appeal to me, or to the majority of women if you asked them. It's got nothing to do with sexism/feminism/private schooling etc.. Fundamentally the job of leading the country doesn't appeal to women as much as it does to men, hence the majority of them being men.

fascinated · 23/07/2019 23:05

Egon wouldn’t be the same place if they let girls or “oiks” in. That is kinda the whole point of Eton.

Pleasebequietnow · 23/07/2019 23:15

I don’t care whether the PM is male or female, public or state educated. I just want the best person for the job. I think we’ve been short changed with Boris.

As for Eton, it’s been around for nearly 600 years and was historically where the ruling classes sent their DS, so it’s hardly jaw dropping news that it has spawned more PMs than any other school.

Original poster
Erythronium · 23/07/2019 23:19

I didn't think it was a very interesting question, given we're talking about Boris Johnson here. Anti-feminist, just so stories like the one you just told us there are ten a penny, feminist views not so much.

There are plenty of women who would like to take the lead in politics. I knew a couple at university, both who were Labour party student activists. He's now something very high up in the Labour party whilst she's disappeared despite being equally as ambitious and political as him. The path was cleared for him whereas she got no opportunities. Same with Cherie Blair and Tony Blair, another example. She was the first one to go for a parliamentary seat but in the end Tony got one and she supported him. It's a man's system, set up to promote men, with a few women getting through. We don't have women leaders because men won't allow it.

I want to destroy the whole system and create something completely different so obviously I wouldn't want to be PM. I'm more ambitious than that.

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Original poster
Erythronium · 23/07/2019 23:23

Indeed it wouldn't fascinated. It's bastion of male power so obviously has to remain class ridden and male-only. Women should be tearing it down brick by brick.

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Goosefoot · 24/07/2019 00:28

I actually think it would make a difference. Eton is one of the mechanisms by which the elite maintain power. If the UK were ever to become a meritocracy, it would have to dismantle some of the barriers.

If there was a mechanism for kids from different backgrounds to access those kinds of schools more easily, it might help with the class issue. I don't think it would make a difference with the sex question though.

Meritocracy isn't all it's cracked up to be though. You just create another kind of elite in fairly short order. The wealthy and powerful of today got there through meritocracy as well, from a big picture perspective. Sometimes it's really better just to admit the playing field isn't level, and there are limits to how level we can make it.

I think the most effective first thing anyone could do to see more PMs from other backgrounds would be to create a really good state education system. When that happens it not only gives the best kids from a lot of different backgrounds the chances to compete for scholarships from elite schools and universities, it means regular kids have a better education as well and there is less pressure for parents to use private education. As long as state education is crap there will be a desire to leave it for something better, even for people who would theoretically say thats not ideal.

Goosefoot · 24/07/2019 00:37

I don't think the idea that somehow they coerced May into taking that job because she is a woman makes a lot of sense. Anyone who didn't want it wold be happy no matter what the sex of the person who took it, and she wasn't obligated to go after it.

Men created the class system in order to have groups of women it was easier to oppress, and to divide women from each other.

This seems unlikely on a few accounts. First of all the class system oppresses men just as well as women, and many men are under women, from a class perspective. There are also plenty of other more obvious reasons people at the top might have liked this arrangement. It's hard to imagine the men at the bottom of the system would agree to this.

And then there is the total lack of evidence for this idea which is kind of a significant thing when you are making a historical claim.

At a deeper level, I'd ask if it is actually possible to have a complex society without a class system, given that there are different social elements with different functions, I suspect it's inevitable. So not really an invention of anyone, rather a description of something that exists because we are social animals and that creates hierarchies.

donquixotedelamancha · 24/07/2019 08:35

Meritocracy isn't all it's cracked up to be though. You just create another kind of elite in fairly short order.

That's not a meritocracy. To work a meritocracy has to have mechanisms which ensure that each generation can achieve their potential, so an oligarchy cannot take root. There will never be a perfect meritocracy but many countries do it a lot better.

The wealthy and powerful of today got there through meritocracy as well, from a big picture perspective.

We have the worst social mobility in the developed world. The merit showed by our elite's ancestors was being able to ride a horse and swing a sword so they could nick land and gold. I think it's gone on long enough.

donquixotedelamancha · 24/07/2019 08:39

I think the most effective first thing anyone could do to see more PMs from other backgrounds would be to create a really good state education system.

I strongly agree with that. That said, the reasons that most judges, MPs etc went to private school are not really about quality of education per se.

TimeLady · 24/07/2019 08:50

May got the job by default as 'last man standing'. There wasn't a members' vote. (I'm a member and was pretty pissed off about that.)

iVampire · 24/07/2019 08:50

I had a look at this just for the post-war years. Because I think comparisons can become less useful if they stretch back too far.

There have been 15 people as PM (Wilson twice non-consecutively, but several for more than one term)

Of the 15:

  • two women
  • six state educated (including both women)
  • 4 old Etonians
  • three did not attend university
  • one Edinburgh
  • 11 Oxford
TimeLady · 24/07/2019 08:53

Looks like Boris is #19 not #20. Let's not lose sight of the fact that fourteen of the others were prior to 1905 and women getting the vote.

nickcleggsfault.blogspot.com/2010/05/list-of-old-etonian-prime-ministers.html

deydododatdodontdeydo · 24/07/2019 08:55

May got the job by default as 'last man standing'. There wasn't a members' vote. (I'm a member and was pretty pissed off about that.)

That's because Leadsom pulled out leaving her the only candidate.
Gove (and the other men) were eliminated by MP voting.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 24/07/2019 09:33

There was definitely an element of the men not wanting the job because it would be career/reputation suicide, which is why May was able to get it and took it.

I would suggest that was because women are conditioned to be a public service, whereas men want to be a hero, and pursue individual glory.

QuaterMiss · 24/07/2019 09:55

If there was a mechanism for kids from different backgrounds to access those kinds of schools more easily ...

They do have a mechanism through which this year at least 83 pupils will pay no fees - but obviously this only works for people who know about it, apply and gain a place through the usual competitive entry. I daresay they could offer much more in this vein by altering the fundamental nature of the ‘product’ offered.

MockerstheFeManist · 24/07/2019 09:59

All the UK PM's who went to English universites went to either Oxford or Cambridge.

JurgenKloppsCat · 24/07/2019 10:08

If anyone thinks PM was a poisoned chalice when Theresa May got the job, how is is it any better now? The new idiot has given himself until October 31st to deliver the undeliverable.

aliasundercover · 24/07/2019 10:22

You think if Boris was a tousle haired large blonde woman from Bog Standard comprehensive, north of Watford, she would be PM now? I don't
I think the crucial part of that sentence is ‘Bog Standard comprehensive north of Watford’.

tobeforgotten · 24/07/2019 10:31

these boring boring people with their boring boring boarding school stories......

QuaterMiss · 24/07/2019 11:37

Come over to the Chalet School thread tobeforgotten - you’ll have so much fun! Grin

(No link as MN broken - it’s in AIBU “not to have realised ...”)

MockerstheFeManist · 24/07/2019 12:41

There was a time, not so long ago, when Eton used to boast about it being a comprehensive. There was no entrance exam, just an 'informal' interview to keep the noveau riches and darkies out.

Gradually, a testing component has been added, and now for 2020 entry for the first time they will be using the same ISEB tests as other leading independent schools.