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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jaw on the Floor - when did YOU peak?

118 replies

WomanBornNotWorn · 20/07/2019 08:43

Can you pinpoint your peak start moment? When you went - Huh? What ... ?

I started my ascent to the peaks sometime last summer over on Twitter when I started noticing #stickerwoman conversations featuring a photo of a cute little flowery pink .... cock and balls ... labelled 'women don't have penises'.

Well obviousl - what??

There's ... an actual conversation going on? Huh??

And that's where it started for me.

It's starting to feel almost like being part of a fandom, the most gripping drama out there, with an astonishing cast, complicated plots and gobsmacking themes. I HAVE to keep checking in with Woman's Place meeting news, @goinglikeelsie's heroic coverage, the latest Riley Dennis aaarrrrggg-inducing offering, Glinner ... I'm addicted.

But the difference between this and Game of Thrones is it's REAL. The implications for women and children including young boys is seismic.

So when did you first go - 'Huh?? ..... '

OP posts:
ThePonderer · 20/07/2019 16:25

When a child I had known since birth decided to transition.

This child was happy with their body right up until the time they reached secondary school and started to feel they were different from their peers. This child is same-sex attracted. Other stuff was going on in their family life.

It seemed so obvious to me that this young person has fixated on transitioning as a way to resolve all problems, in exactly the same way that I thought being thinner/prettier/cooler would solve all mine at that age. But adults were actually supporting and facilitating the delusion.

Around the same time my own child developed a chronic health condition which requires medication for life. The idea that any child with a healthy body would unnecessarily choose this for themselves is obscene.

I am so grateful to MN for this site. The lack of discussion, research, and basic logic elsewhere is staggering.

BickerinBrattle · 20/07/2019 16:35

When I realised, some years ago, that universities had changed all their Women’s Centres to Gender Centres, and I understood that an important site of feminist consciousness-raising had been eliminated, and from there understood that under genderism,there would never again be ANY public spaces where women could gather without the presence of males, remembered South Africa’s apartheid laws that forbade more than 3 Black persons from ever gathering together without the presence of a White person, and thought:

How can there ever again be a true feminist movement if women cannot legally freely associate in public free from the presence of the very class from which we are striving to liberate ourselves?

It became clear to me that genderism is a means of policing women.

BickerinBrattle · 20/07/2019 16:38

As is proved every day on Twitter, on the weekends on this board, and in the self-silencing of women afraid of job and career ramifications if they speak out.

learieonthewildmoor · 20/07/2019 16:39

When I first read about the cisgender privilege that women experience I had a sneaking suspicion that I wasn’t going to be onboard.
I saw women whose feminist writing I admired pronounced transphobic, from Germaine Greer to glosswitch.
Then a woman whose blog I read was abused and piled on because she “liked” a tweet. People were showing up shouting at her and demanding she say TWAW. It was awful.
At the same time I saw a series of photos of a non-op trans woman, removing the wig and make up, each one labelled “Still a woman”. And I realised I didn’t believe that.

Callingallbutterflies · 20/07/2019 16:50

Recently peaked. Always been fairly liberal and amenable to how people wanted to live their lives as long as they weren't hurting anyone else. However, sharing of women only spaces did concern me and I started to read up on the Equalities Act/GRA and I then found this forum and subsequently found people doing excellent work on Twitter. Women's and children's rights are being attacked. How could I not be peaked?

SunsetBeetch · 20/07/2019 17:03

Rose McGowan for me. Ironically I was led to the twitter thread with the video of the incident by one of the very woke lefty people I was following on twitter at the time.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 20/07/2019 18:02

I never believed twaw but was pretty much 'live and let live'

yeah me too.

Until I learned via the jennifer james that some TW thought they should be on all women short lists, and so did the fucking Labour party.

so, this thing created to offset the disadvantages women suffer by virtue of their socialisation and biology, you want to have it even though you haven't suffered due to either of those things?

I still did the pronouns and all that shit even after that. I don't now.

Tyrotoxicity · 20/07/2019 18:20

About twenty five years ago.

Came across the concept of transsexualism in a book.

Thought "Okay, treating people kindly and compassionately is a good thing... But treating men and women differently is a sexist thing... If I treat a hypothetical male with a crippling mental condition 'as a woman' then aren't I being, well, sexist? And isn't this whole idea predicated on the idea that men and women are fundamentally different in their brains, which, again, sexist...?"

To be honest it was a bit of a relief seeing the scales fall from others' eyes on this one over the seven years I've been on MN. Heartening to discover I'm not the only one who sees something a bit off about the entire notion.

Relief massively overtaken by horror these days though.

Grimbles · 20/07/2019 18:40

McKinnon was my sherpa.

AnotherAdultHumanFemale · 20/07/2019 21:36

I was blissfully unaware of the entire ideology until I decided to join Reddit and joined some forums which were supposedly women only. I encountered a group of people calling another group of people 'Terfs' implying they were dreadful horrible bad people. They pointed to another subreddit (Gender Critical) and I clicked on it expecting a terrible place, but instead read lots of sensible posts I agreed with. Confused, I read and read and asked some questions and found out that terf was the name that trans rights activists had given to genuine actual proper feminists, the type I'd always respected but whose ideas I'd not heard in ages due to liberal feminism taking over the mainstream since the 90s at least. I also then found out that all of those so-called 'women only' subreddits were full of men who 'identified' as women. I'd never had a problem with transexuals but never in a million years thought they thought they were actually women, the idea to me is completely ludicrous. I also don't ever remember them insisting that they were women before.

I read and read from a range of sources and was, and still am, HORRIFIED. I still can't believe that politicians, charities, schools etc have all accepted this ideology without question. The way it is also extremely harmful to children, and is a direct attack on women's rights to safe spaces, funding, sports divisions, scholarships etc is plain to see. The fact that TRAs are so aggressive to anyone who dares ask a question is also a huge red flag. Peaceful genuine human rights movements do not behave like this and they don't try to destroy the rights of others whilst trying to gain a priest-like status for themselves where they are allowed to dictate language, laws and rip up the fabric of society to suit them and disadvantage everyone else.

ChickenonaMug · 20/07/2019 23:05

I personally became aware and concerned about five years ago after a situation in the lingerie department changing room of a M&S store. I was trying on bras in a cubicle when someone with a very loud male voice went into the cubicle beside me. As women who was subjected to a lot of sexual abuse including rape when I was a girl, I reacted instinctively and felt vulnerable and a bit traumatised. Through my teens and twenties in particular, I had regular trauma and fear-based responses to certain situations with men - both because of the abuse of my childhood but also because I continued to be subjected to regular sexual harassment and sometimes assault by men ( the sort that many young women are subjected to). It was clear to me that you usually could not tell which men would harass you and when. The trauma responses were awful and limiting. I expect that I would have been diagnosed with PTSD if I had felt able to talk to HCPs about it. By my 30s I thought that I was handling the trauma a lot better. The nightmares, for example, stopped being a nightly occurrence. I had spent years trying hard to push myself to do things that I would struggle with, although I have always cut myself a bit of slack if things became overwhelming.

So whilst I was reacting to this other customer in the cubicle next to me I was also telling myself that of course I could cope and I was also trying to tell myself that I needed to do it as where else could this poor other customer go to try on bras. Meanwhile this customer was demonstrating no concern for any of the feelings of the women in there. Instead their voice, as they spoke to the sales assistant that was with them, got louder and I am sure deliberately so. The conversation was all about their transition and their 'breast' surgery. It was very detailed and they paused only to hear the responses that they were clearly waiting for from the sales assistant which were all along the lines of how hard it must have been for them and how brave they were. I don't even think that was what the sales assistant was thinking, I think she just knew what was expected of her. My instincts were screaming at me to get out by this point and I gave up trying to cope and left. I lasted less than five minutes and I left feeling somewhat violated, upset and also a bit annoyed at myself that I couldn't cope.

This incident stayed with me and a while later when the petition to place Tara Hudson in a women's prison was signed by so many people I was horrified. I was even more horrified when the prison service changed the rules and allowed all male prisoners with a GRC into female prisons, as well as some male prisoners without GRCs who claimed to be female. I had lasted five minutes and had the choice to leave and now it was apparent that female prisoners many of who would have histories of sexual abuse and rape far worse than mine would be expect to cope with months or even years alongside males (some of who were sex offenders) whose presence would frighten and retraumatise them.

Then I found out about that the Guides would be placing girls into tents with male children who identify as girls - potentially without even the girls or parents being made aware. This also horrified me as I can certainly imagine all to well how a girl, who feels unable to disclose that she has been sexually abused, could feel 'trapped' in a situation which is deeply traumatising to her.

Then I found out that many schools had similar policies and that vulnerable, abused girls would be expected to use changing rooms and toilets next to males. Some of these girls would be using the toilet to check for signs that their period had started and that they were not pregnant.

Then I found out that these girls would be expected to believe that someone is who they say they are. That they must accept that a male is female if this is what they claim and also that this person would no longer represent a significant risk nor should their presence be traumatising to them based on the claim they make that about their gender/sex. I think the danger of this to a sexually abused girl is obvious. She should not be taught that a person is who they claim to be. Nor should she made to feel even more fearful of the consequences of trying to disclose that her abuser is not who claims to be and everyone else believes he is. She has the right to recognise people for who they are.

Then I found out that girls who objected to sharing intimate spaces with males and to having their privacy and boundaries overridden could be subjected to education about inclusivity and I have even seen it suggested that they could be advised to leave the school if they are not happy with the policies. So a sexually abused girl who feels unable to disclose her abuse could be told that she is wrong to want these boundaries and that she must be kinder and more inclusive.

The more I looked the more horrified I became. Policies are being bought in without any impact assessment of the needs of anyone and certainly not the needs of sexually abused girls. The safeguarding risks to these girls do not seem to have been considered despite safeguarding being about the development and wellbeing of all children. These policies are placing sexually abused girls at risk by discouraging the development of their emerging and fragile boundaries - which are necessary both in order to potentially escape or disclose the abuse and also to reduce the chances of revictimisation in the future. These policies also risk abused girls suffering further from really horrible and terrifying trauma and fear-based responses.

The added horror of it all is that when I looked for the organisations and people in authority raising concerns and speaking up for these girls I found no-one (except a few brilliant women and the groups that they urgently formed). Not the NSPCC, Rape Crisis or any other major charity. Not government ministers (with a couple of notable exceptions). Not Headteacher or Social Worker Associations. Nor much of the press. In fact I found the opposite I found MPs and charities that would dismiss and even laugh or sneer about women and girls need for boundaries. I found an awful lot of people who would applaud themselves for their kindness and progressiveness and who failed to acknowledge the immense harm they are causing to vulnerable girls who have already been through something akin to torture. I also found out that no-one wanted to listen to these concerns and that women who speak up are condemned as bigots and transphobic and that they are silenced.

That is how I peaked. This is why I try and do my bit. I will do my best and try my hardest for these vulnerable girls and indeed for all girls and women.

ChattyLion · 20/07/2019 23:10

Chicken Flowers and thank you for that very powerful post.

Callingallbutterflies · 20/07/2019 23:55

Chicken... Amazing post. Thank you.

WomanBornNotWorn · 20/07/2019 23:59

Chicken - superb post, thank you so much and I'm so sorry you went through this. Would you consider sharing your post with A Woman's Place, Fairplay etc?

OP posts:
Erythronium · 21/07/2019 00:02

I will do my best and try my hardest for these vulnerable girls and indeed for all girls and women.

Me too. Thank you for your post Chicken.

cwg1 · 21/07/2019 00:36

Chicken Flowers

Tigger365 · 21/07/2019 00:40

I’m not sure what peaking is. But I think I just realised I’m not alone.

AnotherAdultHumanFemale · 21/07/2019 00:46

I have a diagnosis of PTSD caused by domestic abuse and feel exactly the same Chicken. Women only places have been a lifeline for me for the past few years. I was taught about boundaries after escaping my ex, something I was not really familiar with before. It made me physically sick when I learnt about this ideology, which is all about the erosion and eventual destruction of boundaries put in place to protect women and children. It felt so confusing to be told 'learn about boundaries then set your own boundaries and maintain them' to now be told 'your boundaries are transphobic, hateful and bigoted and you will be reported if you voice them.'

It's horrifying, I feel like this is the only word for it. I asked Women's Aid about this and they said to email them my concerns, they are currently discussing self ID in relation to refuges they said and are welcoming feedback, so the more people who contact them the better. The fact that they are considering letting self ID males into refuges is unbelievably cruel, given that all of the women there will be traumatised by abuse and violence from males, much of it sexual violence, but I think like most charities they'd get their funding removed if they refused (like Vancouver Rape Crisis). I think this is why most places are silent, I'm not sure they have much choice, but seeing them be silent is devastating and frightening. I wish collectively they all stood up for us, since they were set up to protect us, and they are now failing us on a scale I never imagined.

OccasionalKite · 21/07/2019 01:02

Chicken, and Another Adult:

Flowers

You are the people who should be advising law on this - how this issue really affects women and girls.

AnotherAdultHumanFemale · 21/07/2019 01:41

That's what I don't understand Kite, why the government didn't ask all women, especially survivors of abuse and sexual violence, their thoughts on this. I've found it just, well, astounding the way places have already gone ahead with policies that will absolutely traumatise survivors, whilst trying to make it a crime for them to speak up. I often think, what if a survivor had a panic attack seeing a male in a toilet, could they be reported for that? They are basically trying to criminalise boundaries, criminalise feminism, criminalise free speech and criminalise PTSD symptoms triggered by males which pretty much all survivors experience.

Another side effect of this is that a lot of survivors will just avoid going out much now, which will not help them recover and reintegrate back into society after the isolation of abuse. For example, they are not going to want to go swimming, or to the gym, or to a shopping centre if there is a risk of encountering men in the toilets or changing rooms. I can't work out if my local gym has some sort of unisex changing room for the swimming pool, it looks weirdly open and 'on show' to me so I have avoided going swimming as a result - I fear asking in case it sets off some sort of 'transphobia alert' alarm. It's so weird how up until 2019 everyone understood and accepted that safety and privacy for women and children was essential, to it suddenly now be 'hateful' to want what I see as a basic human right.

Musthavesbackagain · 21/07/2019 02:20

Ten years ago, I had a male friend who transitioned. It never sat right with me even though I couldn't put my finger on exactly why. I must have unwittingly said something GC in the pub one night back then though, as I got a very angry phonecall the next day from a mutual male friend who wished to insist quite firmly that our friend was transgender now and that was something I must go along with. I didn't think much of it at the time but I still remember that phone conversation now, ten years later (from a white male who had nothing to lose from this ideology).
After that, it was a steady development of GC thought processes, and several years later I ended up here, reading lots of things that confirmed the position I already held. I have never believed that transwomen are women, because gender identity is not the same thing as biological sex.

MrsJamin · 21/07/2019 05:40

I was all "live and let live" until there was a thread about Anna Lee who stood for NUS women's officer in Feb 2016. The thread totally opened up my eyes to the issue in sport, I was just astounded that a man could say he represented women's experience.

WomanBornNotWorn · 21/07/2019 08:30

Tigger
'peaking' is when you get that WHAT? moment, maybe after feeling quite relaxed and accepting of it all. It's when something clicks in your mind because of something you read, see, hear, experience that makes you realise something's wrong.

OP posts:
LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 21/07/2019 09:01

It’s when you scour the faces of a poster or newspaper story of the winners of some women’s competition or award, just to check the male/female ratio.

HorsewithnoRegretsNonJeNeRegre · 21/07/2019 09:47

Yes, and when they just mentioned on the news that America will put a man and a woman on the moon I thought riiiight...

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