Porn as a violent hate crime

[sakura184]

Just thinking about the violence of porn, which Gail Dines covers in her books. And Dworkin explaining that if it were any other group of people apart from women, who were being hurt, given diseases, and abused, then there would be a national outcry.
But because being abused is what women are for, people can't see, or they overlook, the harm. I remember her saying that the value of a woman correlated to her ability to be abused. It took a long time for me to get my head around what she was trying to communicate. It still boggles me a bit.

Ultimately the existence of porn is justified on the grounds of free speech. I think this goes a long way to telling us how women are viewed. I still can't get my head around that one, no matter how hard I try.
Anyway, women die and suffer bodily trauma because of porn. I can't see how it is anything other than a hate crime.

( just an aside, and for a comparison of how women are treated compared to other groups, How is it possible that my right to refuse "preferred pronouns" doesn't fall under free speech? And how is it possible that misgendering is a violent hate crime? The unfairness and doublethink of this bothers me a lot)

It's a global elephant in the room and has given rise to an epidemic of sexual sickness based on male fantasy.

Boys' minds are poisoned beyond comprehension and girls think that this is how they are expected to behave/perform? One has only to look at the incel groups to see how porn breeds and perpetuates misogyny and violence towards women and girls.

It's all about normalising and promoting extreme male sexual entitlement and the abuse of women and girls. And girls are fucking terrified, yet are expected to suck it up (often literally), and comply with male sexual demands.

Gone are the days of dodgy top shelf magazines hidden away in the back of a wardrobe. Shocking, extreme porn is freely available at the touch of a screen, anywhere, any time, and there is no stopping it.

One of my daughters had a man sitting beside her on a crowded bus watching hardcore porn on his phone. In public. And nobody did anything. She got up and left but still, WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?

If I could burn it all down, I would. But nobody gives a shit because it's just women, right? And we can all shut the fuck up.

It's not a hate crime. It's the sustained, sanctioned, violent abuse of women and girls. It's rape. It's assault. It's coercive control. It's sex trafficking, kidnapping, murder and paedophilia.

It's all of those things @Sicario but I think the underlying motive is hatred of women

Regarding your daughter, did you hear about the French woman who filmed a man masturbating on a train so she had evidence. And then she got a higher fine than him!

A woman in Indonesia recorded her bosses indecent phone call and she is being sent to prison for distributing obscene material.

www.nytimes.com/2019/07/05/world/asia/indonesia-harassment-case.html

Mary whitehouse actually was absolutely right it seems

Prison . Jesus

I've just wikied Mary Whitehouse. Obviously I'm not a right wing Christian but I'm happy to align with right wing women. Dworkin wrote a book called Right Wing Women and in it she argues that right wing women have a better grasp of reality than feminists and left wing women. That they make a concession to men, to be faithful and to bear his children alone, and in return they expect certain things. It seems right wing women have a better grasp of what male unbridled sexuality actually means for women and children and we mock them for being "pearl clutchers "

What about women who enjoy watching porn?

What about them?

Are they degrading women too?

Yes. HTH.

Its astonishing that the 'women who enjoy watching porn' never get together to make ethical porn so people can enjoy watching other people have sex with a clear conscience.

I've never met a woman who watches porn. I've met a lot of people online who claim women watch porn, their evidence is usually that 'Porn Hub say X number of searches are performed by women.'

They ignore the point that many men tick 'woman' when they search because they think they'll get better or different porn.

There are 'female friendly' porn makers where the focus is on the woman receiving pleasure. But they are few and far between and you dont know until you watch how 'friendly' it is.

@Grimbles
Also, I suppose the only type of female friendly porn that could exist is where the woman has an exhibitionist streak and enjoys getting naked in front of a camera crew. It just seems like such a sterile environment for me that I can't imagine being able to relax enough to truly enjoy it.
And obviously she would have to be doing it for free/ as soon as cash Changes hands it's just garden variety prostitution and she has to pretend to be horny, put on a performance, which isn't female friendly at all is it

There was an interesting BBC debate recently on so called "ethical" porn with Sarah Ditum. Suffice to say I'm not convinced by the arguments in favour.

sakura, men people like to believe that women enter 'sex work' willingly and enjoy doing it to excuse their own enjoyment/ tolerance of it to varying degrees.

I have watched 'female friendly' porn in the past, but will not watch it now. Some may be 'legit' but you have absolutely no way of knowing for sure so I'm not going to provide further demand for it.

Ultimately porn is market driven. Violent porn exists because that's what men want to watch. If men wanted to watch ethical porn instead, it'd exist instead. The only way to convince men who like to watch violent porn to switch from unethical porn to ethical porn would be to create ethical violent porn. The only way of doing this would be to:
a) have actors who "consented" to having violent sexual acts committed against them, or
b) have the entire thing staged like a movie.

In the case of (b) movies with sexual violence already exist and are much easier to get hold of/ more acceptable to watch than violent porn, so it suggests that people watching this stuff don't actually just want to see it, they also want it to actually be happening. Knowing it's real is part of the kick.

So option a) then. Can people really consent to having sexual violence committed against them? I'd say not. But the production of this kind of "porn and it's promotion as "ethical" is predicated on the idea that people can and do freely and happily consent to sexual violence. Disseminating that belief is disastrous in it's own right.

Finally the argument that if the actors consent then no one is harmed is fallacious. A man who is validated in his belief that acts of sexual violence can be consensual and that the desire to watch sexual violence is not inherently immoral, is a dangerous man. Our beliefs don't live in a vacuum and the production - the entire concept even - of ethical porn, reinforces misogyny and male sexual entitlement and puts all women in danger, not just the porn actors/ victims.

This has got me thinking. I don't mind porn may be it is wrong. You know it can be nice fantasy of escapism for woman to imagine being dominated. Surely porn is just a little mind treat? Where does 50 shades come into this? Women seemed to enjoy that.

I think it's because 50 shades doesn't use real people , who can contract real diseases and be really hurt

You can't give consent in porn because what if you change your mind halfway through. You're not allowed to back out so at some point what starts as consent turns into rape.
And yes men know the difference between consent and not, so staged violence wouldn't really work I don't think--they want to see her utterly destroyed and blubbering ( read it in Gail Dines' book)

I also learned that in America if there is no money shot ( if the man doesn't finish) nobody gets paid including the female "actress"

@sakura184 what you talking about is extreme hardcore stuff with gangbang? Not babysitter or estate agent porn, so is that stuff ok?

@soapona

I don't think it is no. Because the women are coerced. Usually with money, which means there's no consent. Sometimes they might have a pimp.
I mean would you like to do estate agent porn? If not, why not? I'd be mortified if my kids found out for example, or their friends. This isn't slut shaming, it's because porn is supposed to be humiliating for women. Dworkin said the word pornography means "writing of whores". It's the word "whore". That's what men want to see and that's what it's all about.

@sakura184 Some good points. I think I might have done porn if it was "estate agent cheesy" if I was young and it paid extremely well. I don't think I'd get paid enough for that so you're right. There are many jobs I wouldn't do as I'm in the privileged position of not having to. The type of person who is most likely to sign up to this is usually vulnerable in one way or another.

Lesbian like watching lesbian porn so is that ok?

@soapona

I just can't imagine ethical porn made by and for lesbians. Do lesbians have the ability to invest and create such a thing, being such a marginalized minority? Obviously I wouldn't count what is Called lesbian porn as really catering to lesbians.

I just don't think there is any such thing as ethical porn basically

And Dworkin explaining that if it were any other group of people apart from women, who were being hurt, given diseases, and abused, then there would be a national outcry

Men in gay porn??