Terribly conflicted (tw mentions suicide)

[nottodaysatanbutmaybetomorrow]

Have name changed for this thread, for all the reasons.

Recently a teen on a gap-year program in Israel committed suicide. Reports make it clear that being Gay and part of the Jewish community seemed impossible to him. His parents (South African) have spoken out about the culture of the community and the Jewish schools and youth groups that continue to send those messages, that being gay is bad.

There are now calls for the orthodox establishment (which maintains most Jewish schools) to engage with lgbtq+ organisations so that this doesn't happen again.

A few years ago I would have welcomed this call. I would have been 100% behind changing the dialogue in the schools (and I'm mostly talking here about coed schools where students come from homes with Jewish practice that can be as little as holding a family Seder sometime close to Passover each year, or identifying strongly with the need to remain Jewish because we can't let hitler win but bacon tastes good). But I don't want any of these organisations anywhere near my children and their friends.

And I can't say that anywhere.

But how can we make it safe for teens to be Gay and Lesbian while at the same time telling the lie that humans can change sex? How can we point out that the law only explicitly bans one specific sex act between two men, and that no one should ever be asking what happens in other people's bedrooms anyway - which is important for those who care about the texts to know - and also teach that there are '37 genders in Jewish texts' which statement comes from people reading ancient discussions about intersex conditions and is utter bull.

I hid when Abby Stein visited here last year and my friends were posting about this wonderful individual who had gone from all male black hat yeshiva and is so stunning and brave and I wanted to shout that we can't even begin to break down the barriers that stop women accessing much of our community if we buy into these awful stereotypes.

I feel so angry that I can't join in the call for change because the T part of the LGBTQ+ equation worries me so much. I hate that in the last 3 years I've lost my sense of solidarity with the sub-community that used to feel like home.

And of course, the old fashioned homophobes are empowered to block attempts to make this community safer for our kids because of the T.

I hate who I seem to be finding commonality with.

It's very frustrating. I've had some similar frustrations in my own religious community around trans issues.

Personally, I would separate the two issues in your own mind as much as possible. I don't think they are really very similar, the basis for restricting sexual activity rests on just totally different foundations than any of the trans stuff.
The latter as has been said many times is based on queer theory and deconstructionism. The question I've asked myself often is why is it that more orthodox expressions in my religion have resisted that kind of deconstructionism, but the less orthodox ones haven't? In fact don't seem seem to see it? My sense is that within that question there might be a way forward as well as an opportunity for a deeper understanding.

Also, as far as the suicide, I worry in these instances if sometimes the obvious reason that people jump on as the cause is really the main issue. Young people who are struggling often hang their struggle on some externality, and make it huge, but it wasn't really ever the real problem. At my university there is now a huge problem with suicide attempts, beyond anything that existed when I was there 25 years ago, and it is students from many backgrounds.

They aren't just similar, they are linked. Its very telling that many conservative cultures and religions are more comfortable with the idea that God put a person in a body of the wrong sex, rather than accept that a God who despises gay people made a person attracted to the same sex.

That certainly isn’t true of Christianity, TheInebriati. Christians believe God is infallible, so He wouldn’t mistakenly put a person in the wrong body.

It's no different to anywhere else, really. The conflation of T into LGB means that neither can be separated and responded to appropriately.

It is very sad that the gay youth committed suicide in Israel, where the largest Pride in the Middle East, and the second largest in Asia, is held. There is support there. Perhaps the discrepancy with what he saw available to other Jews, compared to what was denied to him by his home community, was just too distressing.

Nor Judaism, Inebriati. Humankind is made in God's image. Deliberately abusing or damaging the body is a desecration of God's work. Most branches of Judaism would not even condone tattooing, let alone unnecessary surgery or drugs.

Ironically, it is the more 'progressive' branches that accept the concept of trans.

Yes, it's similar in Christianity, Orthodox Christians aren't generally supposed to get tattoos though in reality it happens of course. And the idea that you could have a mismatch with your body doesn't exist, because you are your body. You can have an illness or malfunction of your body, which isn't really seen as different from a spiritual illness, but there isn't some kind of second, separable, you.

It's progressive Christian groups that have really been taken in. In part I suspect its because those groups tend to have poorer theological education even for their leaders. They have also been very influenced by the idea of social progress that's widespread in the larger culture. There is very little attempt to really hold up whatever is the newest social revelation against their own theological underpinnings to see how it matches up. And to be frank, I think many people in those groups are eager to be seen as with it, they are embarrassed when pop culture sees them as behind the times, uncool, or bigoted. These are the people that listen to Christian pop music, after all.

It's hard to make sweeping statements about what Judaism or Jews believe

But for many it comes down to all humans are created in the image of G-d.

That's the line that disability advocates and feminists have clung to for years.

And that line is completely against the concept of 'born in the wrong body'.

And previous posters are correct. It's the 'liberal' strands of Judaism that have embraced queer theory. But still, the orthodox communities across the spectrum remain more homophobic than not and there is an emphasis on everyone growing up to marry and build a traditional Jewish family.

Yes, Israel has a huge Pride. But there, too, the T are trying to skew the narrative. Also, With the opposition to Pride in Jerusalem being strong I would not be surprised if the gap year organisers chose to talk with the kids about why and to encourage debate about the issue. To frame it as religious vs gay communities as though there is no way to remain within the organised religious communities and be in same-sex relationships (or attracted).

But I think my real concern is that this might be the moment that the ultra conservative people in charge of the mainstream schools in SA, Aus, UK etc decide that we need to change dialogue around being Gay/Lesbian and same-sex partnerships in a Jewish context. But that already 'gender identity' is being talked about as much as sexual orientation.

And gender identity is a furphy.

I don't want this tragedy to be the impetus for letting it into our schools and youth groups. Not in an uncritical way.

And I can't say it aloud because being 'transphobic' is considered the same as being homophobic.

As a side note; I find it interesting that the parts of the community that consider themselves egalitarian (or claim to strive for such) have bought into the TRA narrative more than the parts of the community that have extremely clear sex segregation. Thus the orthodox women fighting for hampstead pool to remain single sex.