Baby dies in childbirth. Parents not allowed to take body home.

[RedToothBrush]

What has the UK become?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-48907130?__twitter_impression=TRUE
NHS fees: 'Couple couldn't take baby's body home'

Charging overseas patients for NHS care in England must be suspended until it is clear it is not harming women, the Royal College of Midwives has said.

A couple whose baby died following an emergency Caesarean were not given the body as they were unable to pay £10,000 in medical fees, one doctor has said.

Joe Rylands said the expansion of charging had caused "disbelief" among many colleagues.

The Department of Health said the charges had raised £1.3bn since 2015.

In 2018, Dr Rylands was working in a maternity hospital when a woman from Western Europe on holiday in the UK came in - she was eight months pregnant and had started bleeding. Obstetricians performed an emergency Caesarean but the baby died.

When she and her partner were recovering on a ward, they were interviewed by an overseas visitors manager, in charge of billing.

Because they did not have a valid European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) they were told they had to pay £10,000 for the care they received - which they could not do.

The sheer callousness of this is breathtaking. Is this holding a dead baby hostage, whoever did this needs to take a hard look at themselves.

If the baby hadn't died, would they have kept the baby??? Presumably no. They would have thought of something else.

What was the point of this?

In the reverse situation, there is a number you can call if you don't have a EHIC with you and it would be sorted out. We had to send a photo of ours in and were warned it might cross in the post with a bill, but that we wouldn't need to pay it. I can't see how there isn't a similar arrangement for those visiting our country.
And even if there wasn't, a bit of fucking human decency would be expected wouldn't it.

Yes totally callous. These employees are paid to hassle patients from overseas including Europe. I was pursued as was my partner after emergency kidney stone surgery in UK on a visit. Luckily we had the correct card but the hostile environment was certainly in operation for even we who have contributed to the UK system for years.

Why was she on holiday in a foreign country at 8 months pregnant? And why did she have no medical insurance?

Can fly up till 36 weeks. As for why - over for a friend's wedding? Visit to family? Quiet baby moon a short flight away? Who cares really?
My travel insurance always requires me to have the EHIC, basically it will only cover what the card does not.

The Department of Health said the charges had raised £1.3bn since 2015

The NHS budget for this financial year is about £144bn.

So, over three years, these charges have saved about 0.003%. And that's excluding the cost of administering them, presumably.

The vast majority of visitors to the UK will either have an EHIC card or health insurance. 0.003% of the NHS budget seems ridiculously pointless if it can lead to awful outcomes like this one.

Surely the baby as a minor should be treated for free. Though deceased the standard treatment would it seems be a for them to be put in a bassinet for the parents to take home.

I've had hospital treatment when on holiday in France and even with an EHIC got substantial bill. Charging is standard in many countries and I'm not against it in general. However the baby has been completely disregarded in this situation and that is to me very wrong.

MyDC you seem to agree with the action taken in keeping the body of the baby, is that right?

Otherwise I struggle to see the point of your post, or maybe you can expand on it?

I'm sorry but the NHS is not a "free for all" for anyone and everyone to use.

If you are from a member of the EU you have to have an EU medical card so you can access their healthcare in the case of a medical emergency. My friend got caught out going to Holland without a copy but the Card people managed to sort it out between them, the NHS and the hospital in Holland so she wasn't charged

Last time I was admitted into hospital my name, address and NHS number were checked to make sure I was covered by being a UK citizen or an EU citizen.

If you are from a country from outside the EU, you need medical insurance.

The article only says they were from Western Europe so I assume they were from a country outside the EU.

As the women was 8 months pregnant at the time then why didn't she or her partner/ husband ensure that a medical card/ insurance was in place before they travelled? There is no excuse for that when there is another life involved and she was 8 months gone already.

To me is sounds like they were hospital tourists hoping to use the NHS as a freebie so they didn't have to pay for medical care in their own country.

Yes it might be callus not to hand over the remains but I bet this happens in a lot of other countries where you travel and don't have medical insurance.

The fault lies with the parents.

The NHS is losing a shit load of money because ppl from non EU countries think it's alright to try and use the NHS for free. If they had paid their bill or had insurance to cover them then the NHS would not be out of pocket by 10k just because someone didn't want to get insurance or thought they could buck the system.

Its just horrendous

That article is a shocker, also not really

We know of things like hostile policy against eg windrush and others in similar position
Hostility against people who need help generally (cuts to all sorts of services, explosion in rough sleeping is very visible tip of iceberg, all sorts of services have been slashed eg news today women's aid england phone helpline canceled, latest in series of similar actions)

This part of the article 'He said rules were not applied consistently - and "easy targets" were made of those less likely to "kick up a fuss" summarises current uk policy about everything. Target the weak, leave the strong / rich / powerful to get in with whatever they want.

Regardless of whether they should pay or not, keeping their baby from them is completely unacceptable. They are grieving parents and have been treated appallingly. The baby and the finances should be separate.

And before everyone jumps on me I do think keeping the babies remains is callus (and horrible heart breaking) but I bet there is a lot of legal mumbo jumbo going on in the background on why the hospital can hold onto a poor little babies remains in these types of cases.

maybe they even signed documents stating this before being admitted (especially if they had no insurance) ? I have no idea! But I bet it's not a case of just doing it to spite the parents.

Badcat intetesting to see someone else who approves of uk policy to keep people's dead babies if they don't have money.

That's 2 on the thread.

And this is feminism chat as well. Definitely v feminist.

What would you have done
Deny her treatment both her and baby die
Treat her baby dies, keep baby

You seem to be heading more for option 1, can't pay no treatment at all

Badcat66 are you really saying this mother orchestrated a bleed and need for emergency c section and death of her baby in an attempt to get free transportation of her dead baby home? What is your actual point? What do you think she was hoping to get for free?

The NHS is losing a shit load of money because ppl from non EU countries think it's alright to try and use the NHS for free.

It's at most 0.3% of the NHS budget.

fullfact.org/health/health-tourism-whats-cost/

I hate to ask - what did they do with the baby's body? At 8 months doesn't s/he have to have a funeral - who paid for that? Did the NHS keep the baby's body because the parents couldn't prove they had the means to repatriate?

'poor little baby'
'the fault lies with the parents'

They have lost a child at term and uk policy, tepresenting you me all of us, says they must pay to bury it. Have they even been allowed to see it.

No sympathy at all for them though, obviously. The whole thing (including medical emergency and baby death?) is something they brought on themselves. The hospital /policy has literally nothing to do with the situation they are in.

UK = callous beaurocracy. Great.

I think this is utterly appalling tbh. I also thought that emergency treatment was free regardless - surely this is classified as an emergency?

I bet it's nowhere near as black & white as that article makes out.

It does cost £Ks and masses of paperwork to repatriate a body, whoever you are, wherever you are.

I dont believe the story. Unless the body was kept because the parents were unable to repatriate it.

@fraggling.

I don't agree with keeping the babies remains, to me it is a callus and heartbreaking thing to do.

The issue I have is this would never have happened in the first place if the parents had taken the correct responsibility to have medical insurance in place before they traveled. They let their baby down in this case. They were in the UK when she was 8 months gone, anything could have happened and unfortunately it did.

Where did I say they should be denied medical help? I didn't. Please stop trying to put words were there was none.

I was explaining that medical insurance or EU medical card is needed when you travel. And every bloody person knows this.

No hospital or Doctors would deny care to someone in need. Nor should they! They GAVE her emergency medical aid to try and save that poor baby, as rightly they should have, as any hospital would.

However, the NHS is not a charity case, it costs a lot of money to carry out a c section but the couple still decided to travel to the UK without medical insurance and without the means to pay.

In some countries if you travel but can't pay for your medical bills you aren't even allowed to leave the country to go home until it is paid off!

Its not about feminism, it's about being an adult no matter what gender you are and being responsible for the decisions you make.

They decided to risk traveling at 8 months pregnant to a foreign country with no medical insurance and the horrible and callus outcome of them not paying their medical bills is they can't bury their poor little baby.

I'm so disgusted by this.
I used to think I was cynical, because I thought that most people are not basically decent underneath, that genuinely decent honest people are as rare as hens teeth.
I no longer think I'm cynical, I think I'm pragmatic. Most people are not decent, they are self serving and need rules because they will behave as badly as they are allowed.

I can understand and see what @Badcat666 is saying as heart breaking as the situation is.

No I don't believe the woman purposely caused herself (who would?) to go into early labour and her baby unfortunately died but that they purposely went to the UK so close to the due date to give birth to a healthy baby.

Like Badcat666 said hospital tourists. I do hope they get there child back and can have a proper funeral.