Women's Hour talking about Lesbian Visibility this morning (from 10am)

[summerofresistance]

The fearless Angela Wild from Get the L Out will be on Radio 4 today!

Women's hour will be looking at Stonewall 50 years on - lesbian visibility then and now. Starting 10am

Kettle's on, waiting with virtual pom poms at the ready!

Listen live here:
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_fourfm

I can’t believe how much of the defence comes down to “well that is not my experience”, from Ruth Hunt and that novelist. Just listen to the what people are saying and accept there is a conflict rather than make out they are making it up! It’s unbelievable and they are so worried about being accused of being transphobic themselves you giving just one inch to acknowledge get the L out might have a point.

Yes, why can’t they accept that other lesbians have experienced pressure to transition or have relationships with males?

A big part of acceptance is understanding that other people have different experiences to you (like being same sex attracted, or having a gender identity) and just because you don’t, it doesn’t mean they’re not real

“well that is not my experience”
See also

• Pro-life women who don't believe other women are ever traumatised by unwanted pregnancy
• Women who don't think sexual harassment is a problem

Funny how in this one instance, suddenly it's ok to do this.

Lesbians aren't attacking transwomen at Pride marches though. Some are just saying that they don't believe the ones with penises are lesbians. They are transwomen. No-one I've heard of is actually going up to transwomen and hurling physical or verbal abuse at them, unlike the TRAs hurling abuse at some lesbians

Angela Wild was fantastic

The other three:

I thought Jane Garvey was good. She challenged them, which was necessary given the imbalance in views.

I thought Jane Garvey was good.
Yes, she didn't say "assigned at birth"!

It’s not yet on the bbc iPlayer nor bbc sounds app. Is that normal?

OneEpisode Yes it can take a while l. It's on the online live link for ages. If you're listening online you can rewind a couple of hours IIRC.

Another I don't think it is normal! It's usually up very quickly.

I expect it's being checked for wrong think.

xposted Summer, in my experience it's usually on Iplayer, within an hour.

That was better than these programmes have been. Angela Wild was brilliant, the other 2 can be summed up as “be nicer” and “I’m alright Jack.” I agree it was unbalanced but I think Jane Garvey did try to give time to Angela Wild.

I’m now going to shamelessly plug my own thread, to say if you want to support lesbians then there’s a thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3621355-Supporting-our-lesbian-sisters-THREAD-EDITED-BY-MNHQ-AT-OPS-REQUEST?pg=4

It's up on the Iplayer now.

Funny how in this one instance, suddenly it's ok to do this.

100% this.

Imagine any public figure saying ‘women will always get raped’ in order to dismiss a safeguarding proposal in any other context - they would be toast.

Ruth Hunt though - no one blinked except Janice Turner.

Unbelievable.

xposted Summer, in my experience it's usually on Iplayer, within an hour

Oh maybe "contraversial" stuff does take longer then? Is it just GC stuff or other subjects too then?

I must admit my only experience of waiting impatiently for woman's hour to appear on iPlayer is when GC stuff has been on (so, not often!).

It's up on the Iplayer now

Thanks Lizzie :)

Link here:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0006dhl

Thank you Angela Wild and Jane Garvey...Angela clear and spot on but the others, oh dear. Interesting to hear there were many tweets or emails and from the ones they included , the balance tipped towards get the L out. As usual only sent in my comments late but hope they have an enormous post bag to deal with.

Having grown up with the discussion about whether women should wait until the revolution has been won before demanding our rights, I found the argument from the woman from Stonewall chillingly similar. Apart from the fact that the aggro is coming from Stonewall and Pride.

That was utterly infuriating.

I would have LOVED if the they had all been asked the question: do lesbians, not bi or pan women, have sex with penises. And all held to answer Yes or No.

I'm not a lesbian but I feel utterly betrayed by women essentially saying "It's never happened to me so she's making it up."

If you believe women, then why - how can you - stop believing women because they are lesbians? Either people like Angela Wilde are lying, or they're part of the right wing, and massively exaggerating to attack trans people. It's abundantly clear neither of those things are possibly true.

And how magnanimous these women must feel for being nice to people who identify as lesbian, rather than homosexual women. I hope the feeling of throwing actuel women under the bus is worth it.

The bottom line is that if you don't support the rights of women to say no to sex with men for any reason, to not being coerced into relationships because they fear being called a bigot if they refuse (as is mentioned in the Get the L Out report) then you support the rights of men to control women and nothing more than that.

It is curious how dismissive these women were.
5/10yrs ago I guarantee they would have been horrified that anyone was critising lesbians for saying no to penises.

I can only assume they are unable to comprehend the issue as being real.
I have spoken to people irl and they are totally appalled at the idea of this redefinition of lesbian.
If the general public can see how this might be an issue, how on earth can these people not get it?
All Stonewall etc need to do is to stand up and say "yes, homosexual females exist, they are called lesbians and it is ok for them to reject penis-people, and yes lesbian (homosexual female) only groups are ok" That would probably be enough - this is not about transphobia - it is about defending female homosexuality - why are the rights and feelings of AGP deemed more important?
Even if it is a "minority" (it isn't) of lesbians who object to what is going on we still matter and I can't believe the betrayal of us by the main LGBT groups
Just one lesbian being thrown out of LGBT groups for their sexuality would be one too many, and I know of many, including myself.

Have only just caught up with this.

What shit programming. Where is the BBC "balance"????

Angela Wild and 3 stonewall trained clones.

Having the author was just an insult. Stonewall is funded therefore it must be right. I've never heard of it.

Angela Mason has always been a good socialist who works with the establishment but thought it interesting at one point she did concede (maybe ancient memories of when she was part of WLM made her think) that lesbians had a right to self determined sexuality. (One of the 7 Demands of the WLM).

And I think trying to set up a issue of Black Lesbians somehow being in competition with lesbians challenging the trans narrative was just indicative of how superficial the understanding is at the BBC.

The BBC could so easily have found another speaker to support what Angela Wild was saying, or referred to published reports.

I normally dont bother with Woman's Hous because it is always so cautious and patriarchy pleasing I just get angry.

Oh no! Have just googled Angela Mason to see what she is up to now, and she is Chair of Fawcett. No wonder they have gone over to the dark side (oops trans side). As someone said on their facebook page in a few years we will have Stonewall now incorporating Fawcett. Seems that wasn't such a wild accusation. Isn't it funny that those who have been on the far left come round to being comfortable with the establishment. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Mason