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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men's "needs"

47 replies

DtPeabodysLoosePants · 01/07/2019 21:51

I'm prone to pondering ruminating obsessively sometimes when anxious about past events/conversations and something I read earlier triggered some memories.

This m

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DtPeabodysLoosePants · 01/07/2019 22:00

Oh ffs this phone!

This might not be the best topic but to post in but it fits I think.

An ex bf of mine was telling me once how his ex wife had rarely had sex with him after the birth of their son. How she was "loose" vaginally "as she mustn't have done her pelvic floor exercises" and how her stomach overhung. He sat there on the bed, all 18 stone of him on a 5'9" frame telling me how he "had needs, you know" as though it's a woman's job to ensure a man's sexual needs are met. I was too naive at the time and did not have MN back then so I just gave the required sympathy whilst thinking poor woman and wondering if she was really as awful as he made out. She had an affair and he never forgave her.

I've heard this often from men. Their "need" for sex. Blue balls. "You can't leave me like this!!'" etc. It's nauseating. Why do some men (not all, before anyone starts) think that they are entitled to sexual gratification? Don't fancy full sex? Ok, give me a hand job/blow job instead. It's all about them. I've know so many men like this and it's often after child birth that they become worse if my experience and Mumsnet is anything to go by.

How can we help put a stop to this? Teach our sons better ways? Teach our daughters that it's ok to say no, that she matters just as much? Try to change centuries of patriarchy bit by bit?

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EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 01/07/2019 22:21

Religion and society holds up this opinion to such a level that it’s said as if it’s a scientific fact

Most of us like, enjoy and want to have sex but it’s not a need it’s a desire that desire keeps the human race producing

But the need that has become such a fact that men had allowed and encouraged to be selfish and claim their desire is a need

It’s so entrenched in our society (and all across the world it seems) that it has allowed the sex industry to abuse millions of women, girls, boys and men (to a lesser degree) it excuses men for being poor fathers, it excuses men sexually attacking women as the need leads to some men not being able to help themselves because you know of their need

It just has to be dismissed how I don’t know but we can start with our sons/brothers

BjornAgain81 · 01/07/2019 22:30

I've heard this often from men. Their "need" for sex. Blue balls. "You can't leave me like this!!'" etc. It's nauseating.

I never hear blokes say things like this. Where are you hearing these types of things? Presumably not from your workmates, family, etc.

BjornAgain81 · 01/07/2019 22:34

"You can't leave me like this!!'"

This in particular strikes me as an unusual thing to say in a normal conversation. Are these guys you're meeting from Tinder or something?

LizzieMacQueen · 01/07/2019 22:39

Oh. Don't men go blind if they don't ejaculate frequently? Hmm

disneyspendingmoney · 01/07/2019 22:41

BjornAgain81

I am so surprised that you've never encountered this, So I'm a man (sorry if anyone feels I'm coopting a feminist thread),but this us a daily if not minute by minute occurs CE I've been hearing bloke I know say this about themselves frin my teens to my 50's.

I overheard two work colleagues saying just this today at half 2, when discussing their weekend out.

DtPeabodysLoosePants · 01/07/2019 22:42

Yes, heard from my BIL in group conversations about sex. Yes, my exH used to grab his erection and tell me I couldn't leave him like that. I did. Much to his disgust. Others when I was younger seemed to think I had an obligation to relieve them of their erection. I probably heard most of these conversations with male friends/relatives in my 20/30s. I don't have male friends that I'm
Close to now and am NC with my BIL.
I have unfortunately known a fair few abusive men but men's sexual "needs" is something often discussed on other boards.

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BjornAgain81 · 01/07/2019 22:55

I'm so surprised that you've never encountered this....I overheard two work colleagues saying just this today at half 2, when discussing their weekend out.

I've definitely never overheard work colleagues begging for a hand job lol, although I've defo overheard a few 'locker room chat' type conversations.

Sexual entitlement isn't a good thing, but on the flipside I do think that good sex usually involves trying to ensure that both partners are satisfied, otherwise it's just being selfish.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 01/07/2019 23:14

BjornAgain81

It’s ingrained in our society from the oh so funny jokes to lie back and think of England as to men being allowed to rape their wives until as recently as 1991 it wasn’t a crime as a man has needs Hmm

I have had men try to pressurize me into having sex and being sexually assaulted if men were not bought up to believe that sex was a need for them some wouldn’t act so entitled they wouldn’t be objectifying women as much they wouldn’t justify paying for sex which sadly many do as you know it’s a need they Hmm

JackyHolyoake · 02/07/2019 07:52

if men were not bought up to believe that sex was a need for them

What men are really saying here is that they do not believe they should have to learn to exercise self-control.

It is a myth, as far as I am concerned, perpetuated by males to enforce the patriarchal demand for female submission to them. This myth is the root of all forms of female objectification by males.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 02/07/2019 08:05

Men are socialised to be like that about sex. The result is an abnormal obsession and entitlement.

Bjorn I really find it hard to believe this is new to you.

Lamaha · 02/07/2019 09:11

I know that women's rights in India are in many cases appalling and India's reputation in this regard is abysmal.

But in my long-term experience with India, it's a land and culture of extremes. Everything terrible that can be said about it, the other extreme is also valid, though perhaps less obvious or well-known.

So, with that caveat, I'd like to mention the Hindu tradition of Brahmacharya which is still, in some parts of India, adhered to and though Western culture and attitudes towards sex is beginning to obliterate it, I myself have encountered it time and again.

Brahmacharya is not synonymous with celibacy. Traditionally, young boys were sent to a teacher (guru) who would teach them, among other things, Yoga, meditation, self discipline, self-restraint. They'd be taught how to handle their sexual urges, not by suppressing them, but by channeling them into a higher energy through meditation. (I'm sorry if, to some of you, this all sounds like woo-woo; do still do hear me out, because it works.)

I've been told, by Indian (Hindu) men, that boys are/were traditionally taught to treat and think of all women as their sister, if she is young, or their mother, if she is older. The only women you should have sexual feelings for is your wife, your life partner. This can be inculcated.

I experience this myself a lot in India. I have dealings mostly with Indian men over there, and every one of them addresses me as Ma, or Amma, or Mother, and they all treat me with the utmost respect. My son has a youngish Indian friend (thirties) who is a bit modern and Westernised, and at first called me by my first name. But one day he said he couldn't any more, as it was disrespectful, and he wanted to call me Mataji -- the suffix -ji being a term of highest respect. And that's what he did from then on.

Generally, in spiritually inclined communities there, sexual incontinence or promiscuity is regarded as a sign of weakness in a man (or woman). It's not something you would ever boast of; it's an admission of mental deficiency. It's not a moral teaching, of sex being sinful, more a psychological one: that sex weakens you, which seems the very opposite of Western attitudes. They learn techniques of disciplining their urges, believing this gives them mental as well as physical strength. Mastering sexuality is seen as the highest achievement, and many men I've known (Western and Indian) have practiced it, some with success, some less so.

Here's a Wikipedia definition of Brahmacharya: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmacharya

Brahmacharya is traditionally regarded as one of the five yamas in Yoga, as declared in verse 2.30 of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras.[10] It is a form of self-restraint regarded as a virtue, and an observance recommended depending on an individual's context. For a married practitioner it means marital fidelity (not cheating on one's spouse); for a single person it means celibacy.[11][12] Sandilya Upanishad includes brahmacharya as one of ten yamas in Chapter 1, defining it as "refraining from sexual intercourse in all places and in all states in mind, speech or body".

Patanjali in verse 2.38[14] states that the virtue of brahmacharya leads to the profit of virya (वीर्य).[15] This Sanskrit word, virya, has been variously translated as virility and, by Vyasa, as strength and capacity. Vyasa explains that this virtue promotes other good qualities.

Married people are supposed to practice Brahmacharya after they have had the children they want; supposedly it is easier for women, who often naturally go off sex after they have had children, and so the wife can be of support here.

I've always wondered why, in a marriage in which the wife has gone off sex and the man hasn't, it's always considered her duty to get her libido back, instead of his to try and reduce his.

To the Western mind such a life might sound awfully boring and devoid of pleasure, but the opposite is usually the case, but I won't go into that.

Grimbles · 02/07/2019 09:15

It feeds into rape culture too. Dont wear/do that because it may cause a man to become so inflamed by lust he just has to rape you, poor bloke.

TildaKauskumholm · 02/07/2019 09:21

I hardly think India is a great example of male restraint, given the huge amount of rape and sexual violence there! The meditation practice sounds good but perhaps is limited to a certain class or educational level? It surely does not seem to apply across the board.

BjornAgain81 · 02/07/2019 09:26

I think men undoubtedly have a higher sex drive in general, but I'm not convinced they're socialised to 'need sex'. I think part of the issue may be that we're conditioned that men should 'take the initiative', so this can often come across as pestering when the man in question doesn't look like Chris Hemsworth and the attention is hence unwanted.

Judging by the few recent threads on here, most women still think that the man should pay for everything at the start (some even think he should 'pay for their company') so this doesn't really help in terms of it being a two way situation.

Grimbles · 02/07/2019 09:40

this can often come across as pestering when the man in question doesn't look like Chris Hemsworth and the attention is hence unwanted

Hmm seriously?

DtPeabodysLoosePants · 02/07/2019 09:57

From threads I've read that attitude would be of the minority BjornAgain81. You must live in a very blinkered world to not see the every day entitlement of men.

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DtPeabodysLoosePants · 02/07/2019 10:00

There's a big different between taking the initiative and saying you have "needs." You've never heard of men saying how their calls will explode if they don't get a shag soon, how if their wife or gf doesn't have sex with them then they'll get it elsewhere because they have neeeeds! No? May I ask what got you interested in feminism? Do you class yourself as a feminist even? I ask that genuinely as I see a lot of denial of the patriarchy in your posts.

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Haworthia · 02/07/2019 10:05

I’ve lost count how many threads I’ve seen where women talk their husbands/partners sulking, giving them the silent treatment, and all round emotionally abusing them if they don’t have sex enough (of course, “enough” is subjective). That these women are regularly coerced into having sex they don’t want, sometimes even raped, and they put up with it to keep the peace.

There are countless men who believe they have a right to have sex with their wives/partners, and that if they don’t want to, it’s also their right to do it anyway.

Dervel · 02/07/2019 10:51

Where to start? First off all it’s bs that women’s sex drives are any lesser than men’s. The problem is that society doesn’t promote female sexual pleasure much at all. This has gotten worse in my life time. First mistake men make is just because a woman wanted to have sex with you yesterday doesn’t necessarily mean she’ll want to today. That’s even true if the sex yesterday was mind blowing and that she loves you.

Furthermore as to the post pregnancy shags do you know evolution has you covered there if you let it? If a man does a lot of hands on care of his baby, and I don’t just mean a token nappy change, but really equally as hands on as mum it affects our hormones too? Testosterone goes down, as does sex drive for six months or so, there is also a positive feedback loop in that the more we do it the more we get rewarded by our brain chemistry? This helps establish that bond.

Sorry that was more than a little mansplainy I’m a little tired, but I hope you get what I mean. I was also meaning to dive into intimacy, but I think I’ll come back to the thread later.

Lamaha · 02/07/2019 11:37

I hardly think India is a great example of male restraint, given the huge amount of rape and sexual violence there! The meditation practice sounds good but perhaps is limited to a certain class or educational level? It surely does not seem to apply across the board.

I didn't say that "India" is a great example. But this particular teaching is a great example. It is one of the fundamental teachings of Yoga, and only a small minority would actual practice it today - amid the utter chaos and madness, the overpopulation, cities bursting at the seams and utter degeneration that is today's India; it's hard to actually practice and it needs dedication and resolve and who has that these days?

However, this teaching and the practice it is embedded in is at the very root of India's culture, even if that culture is fast disappearing and shows that there is a fundamental wisdom there that men CAN and SHOULD contain their sexual urges, as part of the ways that society can be healthy and nourishing for all.

If you went to India as a tourist you would be hard put to find any of that knowledge just floating around. This is a very old teaching (a couple thousands of years) and it just means that people were wiser back then. I posted it as an example.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 02/07/2019 11:39

The relationship board has many posts from women complaining that their DHs aren't interested in sex, but it does seem that it's more often the other way round and the impression many people have is women are less interested in sex.
My personal impression is that when young and/or first met, women's and men's "needs" are very similar, but that many women seem to lose interest as time goes on. The reasons for that could be debated.
It seems that the women complaining they don't get enough tend to be younger or in new relationships, and the men complaining they don't get enough tend to be older or in long relationships.

Lamaha · 02/07/2019 12:00

First off all it’s bs that women’s sex drives are any lesser than men’s.

I absolutely do not believe it's bs. And I think it makes sense from an evolutionary and biological aspect, that we should want "it" less.
It's also my experience that the society we live in makes a huge difference. A highly sexualised society, such as we have in the West, will cause an increase in drive for both sexes. The opposite is also true.

Juells · 02/07/2019 12:28

Years ago I heard a radio programme about the prevalence of AIDS in townships in SA, and one of the reasons cited by the charity was that men believed it was harmful to not have sex just about every day, so they when they went away for work they'd visit prostitutes and then give their wives AIDS when they returned home. That and the belief that 'dry sex' is more enjoyable for men.

Dry sex promulgates HIV/AIDS in three ways: The lack of lubricant results in lacerations in the delicate membrane tissue, making it easier for the lethal virus to enter. In addition, the natural antiseptic lactobacilli that vaginal moisture contains aren't available to combat sexually transmitted diseases. Finally, condoms break far more easily due to the increased friction.

Sub-Saharan women attain this dryness in various ways. Herbs from the mugugudhu tree are wrapped in a nylon stocking and inserted into the vagina for 10-15 minutes in a procedure that one woman described as "very painful." Mutendo wegudo (dry soil where a baboon has urinated) is a traditional Zimbabwean recipe. A crushed stone called "wankie" is also utilized, reports the Oct. 23, 1998, World African Network, as are potions called chimhandara ("like a virgin" in Shona) and zvanamina ("taste me only" in Ndebele). Shredded newspapers, cotton, salt and detergents are also used.

Honestly, who'd be a woman? 😞

Soubriquet · 02/07/2019 12:32

I must admit my dh has a higher sex drive than me.

He frequently asks for help, and will gently pester me to help him BUT if I say I’m really not in the mood, he will accept that and walk away.

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