It's not just womens groups who have to accept the various groups who are eaither man or woman.

[EachDubh]

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10216303324829396&id=1042140686

A friend has just left the forum, and i understand why as full apology given, cis statis affirmed. This was an important mental helth support group why does everything have to be open to validate people. I know as a woman i hate this and can understand men not liking it too.

So much entitlement from some people.

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10216303324829396&id=1042140686

Wow there's a lot of aggression and swearing on that Facebook thread.

Back in the 60s and 70s we were fighting men only spaces and insisting we should be allowed in. How the world changes.

Now it is only certain men, not all men. Maybe we have more in common than we think.

I think everyone deserve apace to deal with mental health issues, i don't believe validating some people is worth the risk to potentailly many more. However it may just peak a few people who hadn't thought about/heard much about this.

Organiser apparently told he should kill himself for excluding biological females from a group set up to try to challenge the stigma of males not talking to each other about mental health issues.

Organiser apparently told he should kill himself for excluding biological females from a group set up to try to challenge the stigma of males not talking to each other about mental health issues.

Abhorrent batshit. Awful. I hope men's health groups and organisations are all over this in the same way we're defending women's needs for single sex groups.

My DC have demonstrated to me how much difference being able to talk about your feelings makes. Both my sons (23 + 26) have had significant MH issues. DS1 can't talk about his feelings at all. He bottles it all up. It's toxic masculinity and I worry myself sick about him. DS2 seeks out therapy, engages, very open. Talks to me, to his mates. He's well and stable.

I've known three men who committed suicide. I'm sure there's a real burning need for groups like this. And I'm glad they stood firm over allowing transmen to join. It would change the dynamic.

But there are some sad bastards on that group. They're going on about men being an oppressed minority and suchlike MRA bollocks.

Back in the 60s and 70s we were fighting men only spaces and insisting we should be allowed in

Feminists were fighting for equality. Representation in politics, in the workplace and reproductive rights. They most certainly weren't demanding access to men only mental health groups.

Transmen as a group are not exactly known for their reticence in discussing their mental health issues... maybe they don't actually have the problem this group is addressing?

These groups for men are needed. Even (especially) by the sad MRA bastards. They should be able to work out their issues with women without any women getting hurt in the process.

These groups for men are needed. Even (especially) by the sad MRA bastards. They should be able to work out their issues with women without any women getting hurt in the process.

Good point.

One would think that transmen (and transwomen for that matter) have problems unique to them, that other transmen (and women) would understand.

Accessing a men only group to bitch about hormonal changes, pre-op nerves and periods would be pointless and annoying.

Back in the 60s and 70s we were fighting men only spaces and insisting we should be allowed in

Male or female there are perfectly justified cases of keeping to single sex, and yes that means sex not self defined gender. Its opened a conversation about different needs of natal and trans identified people. Frankly its another case of trans entitlement gone mad, although from female born people for a change.

As a mother of a son who has had significant trauma in his life, I want him to be able to access groups that can support him and if that is a men only group then so be it. Trans men butt out and found your own groups or join women only groups if they are open to you.

I was wondering how long it would take for the trans backlash against male only groups.

Maybe now the men are outraged there will be more questioning of trans ideology.

This is a group for males. Fine.

I agree that this is a case where sex segregation is justified for a men-only group - just as is for women. I'm just bumping this, because I've seen this message on my Twitter, from the man that runs the group (screenshot attached).

It is known that a lot of men struggle to open up about mental health issues - and if a men-only group helps that, then good. To be frank, I can't imagine a group of Aberdeenshire men getting together for support want to start talking about trans issues with someone who has been born and socialised female.

Anyway, to prove that no good deed goes unpunished, the man running the group has been inundated by the TRAs - told to kill himself, and had a rape threat. So that's nice

Hope he continues to stick to his guns.

For the record, the UK Equality Act 2010 is very explicit here:

Schedule 3, section 27 [Single sex services] subsection 4:

(4) The condition is that—

(a) a joint service for persons of both sexes would be less effective, and

(b) the extent to which the service is required by persons of each sex makes it not reasonably practicable to provide separate services.

And section 28 [Gender reassignment]:

28(1) A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to gender reassignment discrimination, only because of anything done in relation to a matter within sub-paragraph (2) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

(2)The matters are—

(a) the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;

(b) the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;

(c) the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.

See also the Explanatory Notes with regard to lawful exclusion of the opposite sex, including people protected by the characteristic of Gender reassignment [see paras 729 -740]:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

Jacky, I take it from that, that this men's group is not in breach of Equality legislation then.

I hope he knows this, because I'm quite sure there will be TRAs telling him otherwise.

this men's group is not in breach of Equality legislation

This is correct.

I have copied the above post to that Facebook page so that those people there can understand the legal position.

It is always lawful to exclude anyone protected by the characteristic of Gender Reassignment so long as the conditions in section 28 are met and, specifically in this case, the condition specified in subsection 28c.

Further, the Equality Act 2010 specifically refers to the fact that it is "transsexuals" who are protected via the characteristic of Gender Reassignment. "Transgender", gender identity", "transwoman" and "transman" have no legal meaning in UK law.

Beyond that, UK case law has determined that, in the absence of a GRC the legal comparator for any person at any stage in the process of "transition" is that of the sex "transitioned" from and not the aspired sex. Thus, a female who aspires to "transition" to male and who does not have a GRC is legally a female [and a male is legally a male].

Isn't it entitled behaviour?

Of cause the counter argument to the people saying "men have a right to single sex provision" is just people screaming t*rf.

Ms Firestone made me howl here. Well played!

I had to cut off the end of her comment though, cos rules,

I'd be very interested to find out the availability of counselling groups for trans people in the area - because although I know Indie won't like me saying this - but this would be more appropriate for them. A transman will not have the same experiences/issues as a man - how could they?

It's come out recently that trans groups in Scotland are getting hundreds of thousands in funding from the Scottish govt - where is all this money going? Is it just being spent on political lobbying, or is it being spent on actual useful services for trans people?

trans groups in Scotland are getting hundreds of thousands in funding from the Scottish govt - where is all this money going? Is it just being spent on political lobbying, or is it being spent on actual useful services for trans people?

Indeed. Perhaps the person concerned could ask one or several of these groups to provide a grant to establish such a group, so that both male and female transitioners can come together to discuss any mental health issues they may be experiencing. This would be an excellent use of all that taxpayer money, in my view.