Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The inevitable has happened - Trans Training at work. Will I actually get fired if I dissent?

16 replies

ViciousTrollop · 27/06/2019 19:44

Job is NHS.

We have non-compulsory LGBTQ training (the email suggests it's heavily geared towards the 'T' element) in a few weeks. If I am in work but don't go it will look obvious (manager pushes us all to attend any/all training if we're in). Am leaning towards taking the morning off at the minute but realise I won't be able to avoid these things forever.

I feel like a total cop-out for wanting to avoid it but am certain I wouldn't be unable to sit though it without saying something and I don't want to get the sack as I love my job.

What should I do?

OP posts:
Wifeynomore · 27/06/2019 19:49

Isn't it normal to ask questions at training? I would go and ask questions. That is the most constructive thing that you can do.

It is not gross misconduct to ask questions/ pose possible hypothetical situations to a trainer at a training event.

HappyPunky · 27/06/2019 19:57

Are you patient facing? Maybe ask about what happens if women request a female HCP or ask for a female nurse to accompany them if they are being examined by a male.

ViciousTrollop · 27/06/2019 20:02

This is my dilemma, I want to go and actively engage in discussion and be really articulate and savvy but am afraid my wits will leave me and I'll just get cross! I know from talking to colleagues that I am far from the only one who is gender critical. Which is reassuring.

I am patient facing. We already offer a chaperone service to female patients (chaperones being female DBS checked staff members).

Questions are a good way to approach it I think.

OP posts:
TigerCubScout · 27/06/2019 20:05

Ask lots of questions - but only about about LGB stuff.
If they give statistics about transgender ask what the comparatives are - "x% of transgender people are bullied at work" - oh, what's the % for lesbians, overall, disabled people...?

iwantavuvezela · 27/06/2019 20:07

Perhaps go with an open mind to the training and see what arises. There is much training I have had to do at work, some I have really struggled with (boring, long, outdated theories revived) , some has been beneficial. It's part of most of our work. A lot of it I grind and bear and write emulations around it and also ask questions and engage. . I get, I think that it is the "trans" issue, but it is also possible you might learn something or hear something in a different way.

iwantavuvezela · 27/06/2019 20:07
  • evaluations
OvaHere · 27/06/2019 20:17

I would go ready armed with questions as PP have suggested.

Not sure if you are customer facing in a clinician capacity but I would also be asking questions about the reality regarding patient records and treatments.

Earlier this year a transman delivered a stillborn baby because of confusion over their bio sex and staff either not recognising pregnancy was a possibility or being too afraid of causing offence.

Last year there was another case (a transman again) in a life threatening situation because they weren't being given treatment in accordance with their bio sex.

I think we had threads here on both those cases. Both cases might have been in the US but it could happen anywhere.

donquixotedelamancha · 27/06/2019 20:25

I don't want to get the sack as I love my job.

  1. Don't say anything which could get you sacked. Don't challenge anything remotely valid (no matter how vapid) about supporting Trans people, because that's fine.
  1. Couch everything you say in positive, inclusive waffle.
  1. Ask questions about things which are not valid, rather than challenging directly. There are probably only about 10 pieces of bullshit that are constantly recycled to justify Genderism.

e.g. 'When you say 1% of people are intersex, what do you mean?'

Then have some referenced stats which make that 1% is an upper estimate for every DSD going (most of the common ones go unnoticed) and actual intersex is very rare. Also have a couple of quotes from intersex organisations asking 'Trans rights' organisations not to do this.

  1. If they tell you as a Cis person you don't understand- remember you are trans. We are all non-binary; specifically a-gender (don't use genderfree, it's a trigger word for Genderists).

At least everyone I have ever asked is, according to the Stonewall definition. I've never found anyone who was born with a Gender Identity, independent of, but correlated with, their sex.

donquixotedelamancha · 27/06/2019 20:29

Job is NHS.

There is a wonderful thread on here giving the exact guidance about how the NHS is supposed to record sex and gender. I think having that guidance, specifically referencing where it's from, would allow you to cut through many of the silly suggestions which might be made.

CharlieParley · 27/06/2019 21:15

Lots of good suggestions here. Questions, especially very polite and non-confrontational ones are a good way to go.

If the training gives advice contrary to the Equality Act, you could ask how their guidance aligns with your workplace's established safeguarding procedures.

I know another NHS employee who complained after getting heavily-T-focused training by an LGBT organisation that their guidance contradicted established safeguarding procedures etc and the company was not allowed back for the second part of the training and their guidance was not implemented.

If they misrepresent the Equality Act, you could also ask if they're sure they got it right and refer to the recent statement by the Scottish Government that even GRC-holders could be excluded from single-sex set asides.

RedHoodGirl · 27/06/2019 21:18

I’d suggest taking the morning off. It sounds like you won’t get much out of it as you’ve already got clear ideas about the subject matter and might end up making things difficult for yourself, as while it’s unlikely anyone will say anything to your face, you’ll likely be remembered for any confrontational comments you make. Is it really worth it???

donquixotedelamancha · 27/06/2019 21:35

I’d suggest taking the morning off.....might end up making things difficult for yourself, as while it’s unlikely anyone will say anything to your face, you’ll likely be remembered for any confrontational comments you make. Is it really worth it???

I must say Redhood, that in your many comments you are always more polite and logical then the other TRAs we get. I think your approach is more effective- most people worry about being misconstrued and don't want to make a fuss. There is a siren-like quality to your argument.

I hope the OP does go. I think the world is a better place when people challenge and ask questions. I think it's sad that we should feel worried to do so on this issue, but in my experience most people are supportive and these worries are exaggerated. Of course she should go to listen, of course she should not be confrontational, but being informed and having thought about the issues is no bad thing.

MoleSmokes · 28/06/2019 06:52

Speaking from a union perspective . . . If there is a push to change working practices, Terms & Conditions, etc. and you don't feel comfortable about overtly objecting make sure to at least say something, like, "I'd like time to think about that".

Saying nothing can legitimately be taken by management as "silent assent". This is important if the suggestion constitutes a proposed change in your Terms & Conditions of employment.

Actually complying with a change constitutes agreeing to a change in your contract of employment.

(Your contract is no longer what is written down if you voluntarily vary it by complying with a requested change. The change does not need to be written down as an update to your written contract. If you later stop doing whatever it is you complied with then you risk being found in breach of contract.)

If there is an existing Policy you can refer to that might be helpful. For example, if it is suggested that everyone should wear badges showing "preferred pronouns" (real issue in another current thread), you could say, "But that would have to go into the Uniform Policy first? So we couldn't do it now even if we wanted to."

Your Terms & Conditions also include "custom and practice". For example, if it is suggested that because there is no policy on Single Sex Staff Changing Rooms then there is no problem making them mixed sex, you could say, "There is no written policy but it is custom and practice - so all staff would have to agree, not just us here. I wouldn't want to get the Unions / Staff Council down our necks if we jump the gun on this"

In my experience many HR staff are clueless about what existing HR Policies and Procedures actually say. (Someone else on Mumsnet had a right go at me when I said this before so I can only say that I am speaking honestly from my experience.)

Don't feel bad if HR claim that something is already covered by existing policies or does not conflict with them. You could just say, "I didn't realise that - maybe we should still check if it affects the Impact Assessment though? It seems like it might from what has been suggested."

Whatever sort of NHS Trust you are working in there are bound to be different patient groups plus different clinical and non-clinical areas and staff groups with different needs. One size rarely fits all. As appropriate, you could say, "Have we thought about how this might affect (whatever)" or "This sounds like it would affect patients so we really should run it past PALS first. Perhaps they could do a patient survey?"

Are issues around POVA or Child Protection in parts of the Trust?

There are bound to be potential conflicts of legal rights if the interests of only one staff or patient group is considered in isolation. You could say, "I know lots of women are worried about some of these things. Could HR organise a forum for female staff, to come up with ideas to make sure that the Trust does not accidentally fall foul of the law, by breaching any of its obligations to female staff under the Equalities Act?"

If you don't already know who your union Rep is and what their attitude is on these issues it is worth finding out. Most NHS staff have a choice of unions to join so you might want to shop around if you think you would get better support from a different union.

(Nationally they are all pretty useless at considering Women's Rights in this area but local Branches and Reps can vary a lot.)

I hope some of these ideas are helpful @ViciousTrollop

Sunkisses · 28/06/2019 09:22

@CharlieParley, is there a write up of how your NHS employee friend managed to get their dodgy trans brainwashing training cancelled due to raising how the training contravened all the other safeguarding policies? That could be really useful for other employees.

Of all the areas of public life it is most important that the NHS does not base decisions and policies on fantasy rather than reality. Both for the safety of patients (male and female bodies sometimes need different treatments/dosages, and display different symptoms), but also to protect the privacy and dignity of patients who want and need single sex wards, services, practitioners

CharlieParley · 28/06/2019 09:29

Sunkisses sadly no, but I will ask if there was more to it than making a complaint about the training directly contradicting safeguarding rules

ProbablyShouldntbut · 28/06/2019 12:31

Questions are a good way to approach it I think

Absolutely - and the more reference to what's in peoples chromosomes / cardiology/ bone & repreoductive structure - rather than what they think about themselves - the better..."so does that mean...?" sounds like a powerful tool here

and when it dissolves into a heap of mutual contradiction as it has to under questioning.. don't disgaree, don't get angry - just say you don't understand.. that puts the onus on the trainer not you.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread