I need help with an issue at work re transgender training and mixed sex loo proposal

[catgirl1976]

So it’s happened.

A well meaning colleague has been giving some training today on how to support transgender colleagues. All good.

I wasn’t able to attend (and knew that I would probably explode if they started misquoting the law etc) but a close colleague (who is gay, not that that is hugely relevant) did and reported back.

The training wasn’t full mermaids batshit but was pretty bad (and colleague felt very patronised by some of the lgb stuff - they might use “queer” instead of lgbt which he finds offensive- that was discussed and concerned by some of the trans stuff)

However they are proposing making all of the loos mixed sex. They also were proposing making everyone have their preferred pro nouns on their id badge but thankfully that got dropped. They also said that if someone wanted to use the bathroom of the gender they identified as that was fine and that people could change gender on a whim.

I’m all for supporting transgender colleagues but I need to speak out about the misinformation and most importantly the proposal about the toilets.

I am in a position where I have to protect the organisation legally so I am well placed to object but I want to do it right

I so far am planning on raising that this would break health and safety laws and ask about how this works for people of faith who cannot use mixed sex facilities and how women’s safety and privacy would be protected. We are not a school but do provide education to young people under 18 so I am wondering if it is worth quoting the legislation for schools.

I want to prepare a calm, factual and accurate rebuttal of the proposal and would really appreciate it if you could help me. If anyone could quote any useful legislation, studies, case law or relevant concerns it would be a massive help.

Thank you mumsnet

As a side note; as this spreads, are we going to see some women become unemployable, because of protected characteristics that they cannot merely take a deep breath and suffer through to use mixed sex toilets? If someone is driven out of a job due to lack of toileting provision and they have a protected characteristic - bearing in mind this is to give choice of options for some while removing the one existing provision for those reliant on single sex - I'd think they stand a good chance of taking their employer to court. HR may be people to sound out here.

Unless equality and reasonable adjustments prevail.

Also look at victimisation. Your employer is not allowed to treat you worse for trying to assert your rights under the EA, even if they decide you don't have a case. You're only not protected if you make allegations of discrimination or harassment in bad faith.

If someone is driven out of a job due to lack of toileting provision and they have a protected characteristic - bearing in mind this is to give choice of options for some while removing the one existing provision for those reliant on single sex - I'd think they stand a good chance of taking their employer to court.

Yes, that would be constructive dismissal.

Fundamentally the desire to create unisex facilities is based on emotion and I think you should consider meeting this with emotion head on. The reason why women need single sex loos is the reason that you are making any of the legal arguments at all. Obviously I do not know your organisation, but it might be effective to paint the picture from women’s perspective, then give them the legal tools that allow them to support/protect those women’s needs while also supporting the needs of transgender people, then point out the legal pitfalls if they follow the current proposal.

Voyeurism and hidden cameras are a growing issue, in particular in mixed sex bathrooms so I would want to know how they are proposing to keep women safe. Surely they would need trained staff to check bathrooms regularly. Also, my own experience of mixed sex toilets is that when you remove urinals, men still pee standing up and splatter the seat (and the walls) with urine, which invariably means that women have to clean up behind them if they want to use the toilet. I find this disgusting and discriminatory. They would definitely need more cleaners. Another point is the configuration of the space: if the cubicles are in an enclosed room ( rather than opening on a corridor for instance), how do they make it safe for women? Could a man push someone in a cubicle and assault her? Would anyone be able to hear?

So much here - thank you all

The Gender Data book has a lot on how women are actually disadvantaged by gender neutral toilets:

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/feb/23/truth-world-built-for-men-car-crashes

For use as additional arguments.

In terms of just functionally using.

Women often hover in unisex because the loos are disgusting and smelly.
We have to have trousers down and when you hover you can't hold them properly, so they flop on the floor where the yellow pools and splatter are.
Women who have a prolapse have to poo at a certain angle, which requires sitting down.
I feel deeply discriminated against whenever I am forced to use unisex for all above reasons.
Also I just hate putting toddlers on a unisex toilet. It's such an awful experience.

As you say that you provide education for under 18 year olds, the Children's Rights Impact Assessment from Women and Girls in Scotland could also be relevant.

Under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, children have a right to privacy, to have their views respected, to have their parents champion their rights and to be supported if they have been abused.

So, depending on how your employer handles informing the parents about abolishing single-sex provisions and how they react to any of your pupils objecting and complaining, they could be violating the human rights of children.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

Thank you Charlie that’s great I may well pm you tomorrow when I’m putting my response together thank you!

Catgirl I have sent a PM. I am currently having this discussion at work as well!

Mixed sex toilets also discriminate against women who are managing periods or a miscarriage.

OP sorry if this is irrelevant

my previous workplace had one set of loos - which I never used - which were mixed at the sink area. The cubicles did have floor to ceiling doors, but you then had to go outside to wash your hands at a row of sinks with men and women. There was a door to that part as well.

having been sexually harassed at work, the first thing that occurred to me was that a harrasser could easily follow their victim into the bathroom and be waiting for them at the sinks.

It was a large organisation and there were single sex loos within the same distance of my desk so I never said anything, but there were always queues because no one wanted to use the single sex!

it's also about dignity at work. Plenty of men don't want to share toilets with women either.

What’s the alternative? I worked with someone who was transgender and they had to use the disabled toilet which I thought was disgusting. They were not disabled.

Challenge I worked with a transsexual and she used the ladies as she had fully transitioned.

I think transgender with no medical certificate should use the biological sex bathroom or a unisex bathroom. I've no issue with a single cubicle unisex bathroom. But there's a big difference between having some mixed sex bathrooms and changing them all.

and absolutely, disabled provision should not be altered, it's usually minimal as it is!

OP, what’s the solution you’re offering up ? I’ve found that if you simply focus on the protection of the status quo, people very quickly revert to seeing the women’s toilets being opened up to transwomen as the lesser evil. It also gives them easy woke points.

You need belts and braces in pointing out the reasons why single sex toilets absolutely must remain whilst offering an alternative solution. If you take control of the problem and offer a solution for all, you leave very little room for dissenters and their arguments.

challengeaway the alternative is they use the appropriate toilet for their sex.

@challengeaway

As you cannot change your sex, why wouldn't transwomen be able to use the men's toilets? Anything else is just pandering to delusions

What alternative are trans people coming up with?

Why do you think there's an accessible toilet there in the first place? Could it be that disabled people stated their needs in a straightforward and honest fashion and then campaigned (really fucking hard) for those needs to be met?

Why can't trans people do the same?

I am so sick of the arguments that go 'waa waa waa where do I piss???' as if it's women's job to sort it all out for everybody. It's not, we're allowed to simply say no. OP does not need to sort out everyone else's requirements before she's allowed to assert her own rights under the EA.

Probably most of us would wholeheartedly support any trans led campaign for solutions that don't shit on women or children. You can only trample all over that goodwill for so long though, before it starts to disappear.

This is the case I was thinking of earlier -

www.oldsquare.co.uk/news-and-media/cases/croft-v.-royal-mail

When I first read the title of this thread I thought someone had proposed in the mixed sex loo!!! It's been a long day 🙈

They also were proposing making everyone have their preferred pro nouns on their id badge but thankfully that got dropped.

Why though? This bit stands out at me. Why "thankfully dropped?" I can see why they want pronouns on their badge,
Pronouns is the bit a lot of people struggle with. As in I'm not going to call you that as you're not"
From being here I can see why they want to go down that route. Even if you won't say she or he they is used repeatedly by people not wanting to recognise them as a she.
I always used to be why is pronouns a problem and then spent more time in here and realised exactly why.
If you're calling trans women or men they why are you? As you don't accept them? Or something else?