Iceland law change

[PaleBlueMoonlight]

Is anyone up to speed with what is going on in Iceland?

grapevine.is/news/2019/06/19/iceland-passes-major-gender-identity-law-the-fight-is-far-from-over/

Is Ugla Stefanía, quoted in the article, one half of the Fox/Owl couple?

I lived in Iceland until quite recently but honestly I had no idea any of this was going on. The swimming pool changing rooms over there are completely open, everyone walks around naked, showers as a group etc. No cubicles even if you wanted them. It was a very safe, clean, and liberating space, with several members of staff in there at any given time. I went swimming every day and never saw a man in there, trans or otherwise. The pride parades were very family friendly, lots of blue hair and drag, but nothing outrageous or fetishy, certainly no violence. The administrative system over there is extremely centralised and the population is tiny so I imagine this was an easy change to make. I never saw anything over there to suggest TRA type behaviour or the invasion of female spaces, so I expect self ID could work OK for them. In general crime is very very low over there and the people are really kind and friendly. I miss it (not the 6 months of darkness or the insane prices though).

Oh ffs. That started out as legislation intended to outlaw performing unnecessary surgeries on children with DSDs (those who present with ambiguous genitalia). Instead, they hijacked the law to legislate around trans issues. The only group left out of the law? The original one that it sought to protect- children with DSDs.

Yes, Ugla Stefanía is Owl.

The swimming pool changing rooms over there are completely open, everyone walks around naked, showers as a group etc. No cubicles even if you wanted them. It was a very safe, clean, and liberating space,

I spent a lot of time in Norway, which is very similar. Self-ID is already in place there. But I wouldn’t hold it up as a reason for the U.K. to introduce self-ID as the general culture is so different.

Norwegians are very fond of rules and regulations and tend to be law abiding in general. If you don’t stay within the law, very likely someone will comment.

I was working there in a job below my pay grade (by choice, while I learned the language) and other local companies actually began to phone up my employer to query why.

Similarly a friend who failed to follow the stringent laws relating to keeping your dog on a lead elicited comments from locals.

I suspect anyone claiming transgender status without undergoing a proper process would get very short shrift. In the U.K. the widespread sense of entitlement will ensure that every Tom, Dick and Harry who feels like it will take advantage the minute they become aware of the law changes.

This has the potential to well and truly bugger the Icelandic system of family names.

You are (given name) + (father's given name + -son or -dottir)

iceland highest reported rape in the Nordic countries? ASsaults increasingly violent

Here porn is considered partly to blame
www.icenews.is/2017/04/23/more-rape-last-year-than-ever-a-heart-breaking-record-set-in-iceland/

DESPite being recorded for 9 years in a row as the most gender equal society by UN

Because it’s culture as well as law that matters. And trans wars are culture wars. Gender is culture

“There are still so many issues facing our community and we must strive towards full equality for everyone, regardless of sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression or sex characteristics,” Ugla concludes. “None of us are truly free until we are all free.”

Also reads as completely dismantling safeguarding for women and children-erasing them as a sex class.

sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression or sex characteristics, So choice, choice, choice, oops let's make that one seem less important, just some 'stuff'!

Characteristics - typical bits n bobs.

I'm in Iceland and I was thinking about posting about this. It's such a small population that I am pretty scared of people finding out who I am, though. If anyone else is in Iceland, or GrabtharsHammar, if you know anyone there still of the sane persuasion, please send me a PM. I have no idea if there is even a single person in the country who has spoken up about this issue apart from former PM Sigmundur Davíð, who apparently wanted to keep the bill off the parliamentary schedule, but is also a raging misogynist so he is absolutely not coming at this from a women's rights angle. In so many ways, Iceland is a brilliant country from a feminist perspective (Nordic model, surrogacy completely outlawed), but on this I honestly am not aware of a single feminist voice of resistance. I feel very alone.

I suspect anyone claiming transgender status without undergoing a proper process would get very short shrift.

Nonsense. The entire feminist community here, as far as I can make out, is fully on board the trans train. Besides, there no longer IS a process. Just pop down to the Þjóðskrá and sign a piece of paper, done.

This has the potential to well and truly bugger the Icelandic system of family names.

A) Not really, because they can just change it to dóttir from son or vice versa. That's clearly what Ugla did. B) Those laws are on the way out, anyway. They've been under attack for a while for being illiberal. C) Who cares, it's hardly the main issue here.

But I'll tell you the bits that made my blood run cold, as a mother in Iceland.

[...] and young people under 18 can do so with parental consent. If parents are not supportive, young people can request to have this changed via a specialised committee.

The law will also allow trans people to seek health care based on an informed consent model. [...] Health care for young trans people was also legalised for the first time, strengthening access for young trans people to care that they require, whether it be social or in the form of puberty blockers.

My children are still in preschool, so there is hope that an international sea change will come in time for them, if they were to get caught up in this. But this law seems like it has thrown all gatekeeping out the window, including for young people. And if young people have 'unsupportive' parents who try to protect them, the state will step in and overrule them. If not my children, someone else's children. Children are going to be harmed.

Oh, I'm quoting from this article: gayiceland.is/2019/iceland-has-made-a-monumental-step-for-trans-rights/

Not sure if it's the same as the Grapevine one.

Puffinshop Are you saying that there has been no analysis in Iceland from a women’s rights perspective (or indeed any parliamentary/journalistic) analysis at all, that it has all just been nodded through?

If there has been, it's bypassed me completely. And I'm pretty sure I would have heard about it because in some of the circles I am in this would be considered the vilest heresy and would attract public condemnation.

As Ugla says, apparently not one MP voted against this.

I'm desperate to know where the male-exclusionary radical feminists are, because as far as I know I'm the only one but realistically that can't be true.

And as an aside: the stuff about Icelanders being so friendly and non-violent and law-abiding so women and children don't require protections - can't you see this is the exact same bollocks as people who accept that India needs more women-only facilities but argue these aren't necessary in the 'civilised' UK. I can assure you that Icelandic men aren't so pure of heart that the patriarchy has been defeated here. I haven't seen a man in the swimming pool changing rooms either. Yet. I truly hope I never will, but sadly I think it's an inevitable development at this point.

As someone who was heavily involved in the entire process from day one as it was the two of us who decided to start this process in May 2015 or three governments ago.

To Charlie Parley you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. If you actually don't know anything then stop spreading rumours. Only people in Iceland involved in the legislation work know what actually happened. Spouting untruths based on your particular attitudes is not to your merit. The trans allies in the legislation team and in trans Iceland helped hold the bill from going forward for almost 2 years to try and force the intersex protections back in. They became the fighting point because doctors demanded they be removed and eventually they won.. And we now have a committee instead to work on proposals for protections.. Blame the doctors.. Not our trans allies.

To anyone worried about the impact of this on women's shelters, women's changing facilities ect. To put your mind at ease this has been happening since 2012 without a single issue. The prison authorites here are great.

To those seeking out people who oppose trans rights and are Icelandic, well you will find some in Parliament, they're also homophobic, racist, misogynist men who treat people with disabilities abominably and joke about wanting to rape their female colleagues. There's also some in Þjoðfylkingin (The Icelandic national front). That's basically more or less it... See.. It's a small country. The locals who grew up here are very interconnected. Most people know a trans person, you generally want your family and friends with respect so ergo.. It's rare for people to really care if someone's trans or if someone trans is sharing a bathroom with them...
There have been incidents where trans guys have been harassed in the men's locker room or mens bathrooms, but only one in locker rooms and in bathrooms it's been drunk men. Because it's just a non issue. One where a trans woman was punched by a very drunk ass hole downtown on the street.

When trans people are your family, friends and coworkers, neighbours, school mates, do social /sport /community activities with you .. As is the case for most people here.. Nobody is scared od their rights eroding others because rights aren't a pie that can only be divided in a limited way.

I'd like to find some radical feminists, not some conservative misogynists. Here's a handy diagram - I'd love to meet some women from the green circle. I think you're right that there aren't many, though I feel certain there must be a few somewhere, cowed into silence like myself.

It's been my experience that Icelandic society is very much divided into yellow or red, both of which I disagree with. The people I know who would even fit into the diagram at all (most of my friends and family aren't really familiar with the debate at all) are exclusively from the yellow camp. They are lovely people in most ways. I just strongly disagree with them on this issue which I consider to be a very important one.

Hi Kitty, I am keen to understand how the law has changed, what the impact is for women and how the impact is being measured/evaluated? You mention that there have been no problems for refuges and prisons - do you mean that no trans women have used/been placed in those facilities (Is this recorded?) or that no problems have been reported?

I think most Icelandic feminists would agree with the statement gender (ice. Kyngervi) is oppressive and socially constructed.. That's sort of the core principle of Icelandic feminism.. That has nothing to do with trans people being accepted.

I'd say most Icelandic feminists fall somewhere in another universe to that Venn diagram..

PaleBlueMoonlight. Trans women in Iceland have been using womens shelters, locker rooms.. Bathrooms.. And that's about it when it comes to any segregation. There have been no issues. Not a single. And if there were there are protocols in place to deal with any issues that could arise. Just as if any woman was being violent to another woman (and that we do have recorded incidences of.)
Prisons have never had a trans prisoner and see no problem in that happening.. They would not send trans men to certain men's prisons due to well.. Yeah those men are in for violence and drug crimes and would probably not be very nice to a trans dude... A guy who was openly gay would not be sent there either.

Its taken place here for well over a decade... And registered since 2012.. Nobody cares. We have more important things to worry about like the fact that courts barley convict for sexual violence against women and children. That our country people who happen to be trans have access to something so Basic as a safe place to stay if they are victims of violence and can participate fully in all social activities is only seen as a positive for society here.

I'm confused as you have made 2 contradictory statements; how do you know there haven't been any problems if the conviction rate is shockingly low?

Please read again. Shelters, trans women have used for over a decade and registered figures available to relevant authorities since 2012. No issues whatsoever.
Prisons. Zero convictions of a trans person ever in Iceland. Prison authority is aware that it could happen and will work to ensure saftey. Certain men's prisons would not be safe for any GBTI person. No out gay,bí, trans or intersex man would be sent there.
Two seperate things.

How can anyone possibly say that no one has any issues with a male bodied person using their bathroom or changing room? Do you mean, no crime has been committed? Because my discomfort at having a man next to me in the toilet doesn’t go away if he doesn’t attack me.

The situation in the UK is very different, the figures are obfuscated, so I was just asking for clarification.

What would a woman in Iceland do if she didn't want to share a domestic violence shelter with a person who had a penis? Are the facilities mixed? In the UK traumatized women have been expected to share showers and dormitories. Although some people claim there have been no issues here, that just isn't the case.

And its the same in Canada, convicted sex offenders have been placed in with vulnerable women, and there have been issues caused for the women.

Its not that people don't think trans people should have access to shelters or other facilities. Its that womens facilities are for women.

The thing is Kitty, you talk about how happy everyone is to be trans inclusive over in Iceland, but you don't say how the impact (or lack of it) on women is being recorded. The female changing rooms in Sundhollin are completely open, no cubicle, everyone comfortable being naked, showering together etc. I absolutely loved how no one was dancing about under towels, everyone just comfortable with their bodies. I went their every day. But I promise you, if someone obviously male had come in and started changing I wouldn't have gone back in case it happened again. Who is recording the self exclusion of women if things like that happen? I'd guess no one.

I'm glad that your trans allies helped a better bill get passed for intersex people. No one wants trans people not to be able to live full lives. But no matter how nice they are, trans people are not and never will be their desired sex, and for many women their ability to participate in public life depends on single sex spaces. Spaces cannot be both single sex and trans inclusive. The circle cannot be squared. If giving rights to one group mean taking them from another, then that's a pie not a feast.

That our country people who happen to be trans have access to something so Basic as a safe place to stay if they are victims of violence and can participate fully in all social activities is only seen as a positive for society here.

Of course. As it should be anywhere. But so should it be seen as positive that females have single sex spaces. Females do not need to have their dignity and privacy compromised in order for trans people to participate fully in society. Or do you think women should be forced to concede these on demand?

Hi Kitty yeah I understand that your trans allies were trying to fix the problem (but not only them).

Doesn't change the fact that anywhere that trans and DSD issues are being conflated as if they had anything to do with each other, especially when it comes to legislation, tends to leave the needs of people with DSDs behind. You do not know what the outcome would have been had you stuck to a single issue bill.

As it is, you ended up with protections for trans people and a commitment to form a commission that will spend another few years looking at the issue. In the meantime, children will continue to have unnecessary surgeries. True allies would have insisted on continuing to halt the bill until the issue was sorted. That is, after all, what trans rights campaigners demanded from their LGB allies in the US.

As for the rest of your incredibly hostile and offensive statement - we also know, are friends with or have family who are trans. Doesn't change the fact women's sex-based rights are either protected from being undermined by self-id or they are not.

Either Iceland, just like Ireland, has a number of separate provisions that protect single-sex set asides for women and girls or it doesn't.

As it is clear from your statement that you do not believe that females could have any objections to being placed with males in places where they are vulnerable, I'm not going to take your word for it. And as we know there have in actual fact been countless problems in all countries that allow unadulterated males access to single-sex set asides for women and girls through self-id legislation, incidents will be happening if your system allows for it. Given Iceland's abysmal record on violence against women, it is only a matter of time until the same thing happens that has happened everywhere else, including the very supermarket where I shop.

And seeking to uphold women's sex-based rights doesn't make us homophobes, transphobes, right wing bigots or Nazis.

Kitty It does sound like you are in favour of unisex spaces and not having single sex spaces, which might be a popular view in Iceland. Are you saying that it does not matter if sex is lost as a legally distinctive group?

As I mentioned above, I am also interested to know if there was any impact assessment to understand how women feel about single sex spaces being converted to unisex spaces and what work will be done to monitor thesituation. From what you are saying it sounds like understanding the implications for women has not been considered, is that correct?

Is there an equivalent of the Equality Act 2010 in Iceland? Were women’s services and spaces protected prior to the recent law change? You also say that women’s single sex spaces were inclusive of some trans women (I.e. some males) since 2012. In the UK you can have single sex spaces/services by virtue of the Equality Act and the act does allow single sex spaces/services that cater for a de minimis number of the opposite sex in particular circumstances. What the UK Equality law does not allow is a service/space which is for women and some males but not other males, as this would be discriminatory against those other males. In other words spaces/services need to be single sex or unisex, but not somewhere in between. What was the position on single sex services and spaces in Iceland before the change in law?

I hear you say that women don’t care, but many (most) laws are not about protecting people in the majority position, but about protecting those in the minority. Laws are also about trying to balance the interests of different members of society and to create safeguards where it is seen as beneficial to society to protect against certain ills (eg violence, stealing, health scares). You mention that shelters and prisons would and do deal with problems arising from the change in law. How do they identify the problems and safeguard against them? Is such identification of problems/safeguards mandated by law?