New boy mum.there: any advise on how to raise them better?

[extrastrongnosugar]

I've gotten to thinking that us mums have some sort of blind spot when it comes to raising boys because surely no mum set out to raise a man that later on expects his partner to do most of the unpaid lifework and childcare - yet here we are. Also, something that gets passed on about sexual prowess and boundaries must be super off .
I'm a new mum to a beautiful baby boy after two girls and I'm starting to wonder how can I raise him for tomorrow.

I'm thinking teaching him to care, do what he can do for himself as a matter of pride, respect me and my boundaries and his sisters, be proud to help, only pursue relationships that are reciprocrative etc.

Older boy mums: what is your advise on this?

Thanks so much!

Thanks extrastrongsugar. I feel it is incredibly important, as well has empathy and compassion. It does get harder when they do have interactions with peers that don’t have the same values taught to them. DS1 ended up being bullied and walked away from his peer group for defending people being bullied, a lot of physical attacks too. Being told to walk away can only work so far. After a year and a half he had enough and after being shoved around threw a mean right hook. Ideal? No unfortunately understable. This probably won’t be a popular opinion here but sometimes you do have to fight back. He is very chill, never one to start something but will step in to defend a younger person or especially a female. His BFF is a young lady, since he was 15 and stepped up to call out a guy (who was a friend) slut shaming her on social media. Whilst her own boyfriend at the time (his now ex BFF) ignored what was happening. He has always been empathetic, the first to run to comfort a hurt child as one himself. It broke my heart to see my gentle, kind boy have to fight. But these days sometimes it will sadly be reality.

Talking regularly about all sorts of things so stereotypes aren't the only topic. My boys both had a doll as part of their toys, one took no interest, the other did. Mine had some video games but not the most violent.

Also language: they both know dh doesn't 'help me round the house' and babysit them - he does HIS FAIR SHARE and PARENTS them. No implied responsibility for me thanks very much.

Yes to the incel discussion LimitIsUp had this with DS2 in regards to the Gillette add. He asked if I’d seen it. I said yes I thought it was good. What they are saying all men are violent. Thank you idiots on gaming sites. I patiently explained that they were showing examples of how men can step up. I reminded him of examples of when his father, older brother and he had done the same. Fortunately he seems to have drifted away from gaming now it’s all about watching different tv shows. He’s currently into British police procedurals.

I haven't got children but close friends of mine have two sons. When I visit with my partner, he often spends time in the kitchen with my female friend (he goes out to work while she looks after the family so they are traditional that way) while I hang out with my male friend in the living room.

This, one, gives the boys an example of a man in the kitchen helping out - traditionally this would be my role as another woman: the women in the kitchen, the men in the front room

And, two, shows opposite-sex friendships. Men and women can be friends who hang out together, talk with and respect one another.

OP - that is a good question. My kids are still fairly young (10, 8, 5) so it all has to be age appropriate.

We talk a about consent and boundaries alot.

Yesterday was the first time I had explicitly discussed male violence with my son.

It's tricky because I don't want to be negative about men as a class and make my boys feel shitty.

But they do need to understand that they may need to swim against the tide and be better than others of their sex.

Physical play between them or between parent and child can be useful because when it (sometimes inevitably) goes "too far" or one wants to stop while the other wants to carry on, there can be good discussions about what is acceptable, listening to what other people want, respecting other people's choices about their bodies etc.

Tricky to get it right, good luck!

Its so hard when the world works against you. Currently my focus is on teaching my son consent is really important. Have came up against resistance from his grandma on this and she argues with me a LOT about how I won't make him give her a kiss and cuddle goodnight/goodbye when he says no. Why on earth she thinks I should make him, is beyond me, but she proper cries on and says that it makes her feel unwanted etc. but..forcing him to do it would surely not make her feel wanted, as hes being made to do it and still doesn't want to..

Resistance from a few family members on allowing him to cry if hes upset too. So so sick of 'boys don't cry', which tend to result in arguments too

Following this, as like TheCuriousMonkey, I too have three boys! 10, 7, 3.
We discuss gender roles and expectations a lot - why is there only Sky (ok later Everest too) in Paw Patrol, the parents and grannies in Katie Morag books, other stuff in tv/books - haven't really talked that much about current affairs yet but have in wider context of racism, sexism, prejudice.

My DH works full-time, I work part-time but only evenings or weekends so do pretty much all childcare/school runs/activities/sports etc. Was saying 'mum's got to go tutoring for an hour' but realised it sounded wishy-washy somehow so now I say 'I'm going to work' and talk about how we need both incomes etc.

At the moment, I am doing more at home which annoys me - every Sat/Sun, DH has a lie-in while I get up with the youngest, do breakfast, play with them etc. This has not been discussed! So I currently feel taken for granted and must deal with this so they don't - boys and DH - think this is the norm. Am prompted to discuss this now!

Interesting what others have said.

Model what you want them to see as normal.

Be honest but kind and expect the same in return.

Whenever my son came home with some kind of sexist generalism, I would ask him if he thought it applied to me, and he’d say, ‘well...no...but...’ and I would just point out that if it didn’t apply to me, or Auntie V, or Grandma, or Cousin N, it likely didn’t apply to many other women or girls either.

I knew he would learn about contraception and disease prevention at school, so at home we focussed on consent and the problems caused by porn.

I’ve always been big on making sure we are emotionally playing on the same team. When boys become bigger than their mums at puberty, it can be tempting to ‘take them down a peg or two’ but I think it does more harm than good. Instead we went for ‘house rules’ that everyone is expected to follow. Keeping my end of any deals made was really important here.

He’s 19 next week (!) and so far, it’s worked ok - he’s currently a disgusting pig regarding housework, but he’s living in halls so no one else is affected and he certainly doesn’t expect his girlfriend to fix it!
Next year will be more of a test.

He’s got a part time shelf stacking job (his second, he had one here before he went to uni) and I rarely subsidise him financially. He enjoys having an income and we expect him to earn it himself. Doing so has given him a source of pride, as well as giving him less free time to get involved in anything stupid!

He has a much younger sister who he adores, for the last year before he left home he took her out for tea every Wednesday while I did a gym class. She fell seriously ill the week after he went to uni and for a month he came home to see her in the hospital every Sunday, even though it took him hours.

He’s turning out alright, my baby boy! ❤️

Can I ask you mums if older boys, at which age did you have conversations about things like sex, consent, porn, trans issues etc?

Eldest is 10, in Y5. Because it was a new school when he started, the year group is pretty much all PFBs, so very few with phones or on social media. He has no phone, we have no tablets, he has an hour online supervised on the laptop in the main room over the weekend and that is it. They have done online safety at school, reinforced by conversations at home.

BUT I know it will all change at secondary! We have discussed consent but age appropriate - the kissing of older relatives etc, tickling, hugging friends.

So, how old were your boys when you talked about other things?

It’s complicated in regards to sex, what I mean is it’s almost like a drip feed. I taught bodily autonomy, boundaries and respect quite young as essentially a safeguarding measure. Then leading into how babies are made etc. When they are reaching puberty more focused on consenting touch, relationships etc. It’s honestly really difficult to place a specific age on this, because children will develop at their own pace. If you have a good relationship and understanding of your children you will know when they reach certain levels. DS1 at 15 was in regular contact with girls (always a clue) so serious discussions were made regarding respect, consent and contraception. In comparison DS2 who at the same age is quite introverted has been on about 2 group dates to the movies with parents picking up.

Oh and I should add as in incredibly important point. The girls age in relation to consent and actual law. I can remember way back when DS1 was 11. We were staying with friends whose son was past age of consent and was throwing a hissy fit because he wanted his girlfriend (underage of consent to sleep over in his room). Awkward situation for house guests. Anyway I chatted with the boys in the pool (occasionally a non parent will be listened to more) I explained that his parents were protecting him due to laws. His cousin 17 was like dude listen to her she is right. My 11 yr old was goggled eyed. But he did learn a valuable lesson.

Just raise him the same way you raise your girls 🤷‍♀️. Don't treat the differently because of their sex.
Anytime anyone expresses a sexist veiw in front of my ds's I shoot it down right in front of them. My dad is the main culprit.

Model what you want them to see as normal.

Really, this is what it all boils down to, isn't it?

Get them/dads to realise that it’s not just up to mums/women to change the world?
This.^
Whenever a man is being a man-child someone will always say " his mother did everything for him". Or "his mother didn't teach him xyz" Not "his dad didn't teach him".
I'm a Mum of teens and was a lone parent.
I would say that the upside to that was that the boys see me as capable and strong. The downside is that they saw me, and Nana, doing everything domestic thing, and however much you say "please do this household task-you are part of the team" they don't see any man doing this stuff.
I have realised just how important what men do is to growing boys. It's everything really. They get to 9/10/11 and start looking around to see who to model themselves on.
I will say that I have always been open and honest (and opinionated!) and have answered facts of life type questions when asked, at any age. Later it's " mum, what's a blow job"...and you get into ideas about consent and coercion etc. It's important to let them know that they don't have to do things that make them uncomfortable when they are older, as well as getting them to understand that sometimes girls go along with stuff they are not into and to always make sure consent is enthusiastic.
I would say my dc are emotionally sensitive and caring, but they come home from school sometimes and tell me some of the anti-feminist crap their mates say ( from 12 onwards). I try to point out the unfairness of sexism when it comes up. Kids are big on unfairness
One of my boys is watching the womens world cup and knows all the players names etc and just respects them as sportswomen which is nice to see.
But ultimately, what boys really need is good men who show them how to be a man and I can't do that. I have a dp now who is a bit lazy with housework and it's a bone of contention for this reason.
Never make boys feel bad about the things men do though. It's counter productive, and very unfair. They are not responsible for that, they have a clean slate.
Only time will tell how mine end up, you can only do what you can do.

I think we did ok with my son. He's very empathetic (much more than me) and like his father will mention things which he thinks are sexist (eg the beach body ready ads which I don't think are worth bothering about)

His father and I worked full time from when he was very young and he was aware my career was just as important as his father's. We had nannies and cleaners. No doubt someone will criticise me for farming out "wife work" and propping up the capitalist , patriarchical system. To which my response is I don't have a problem with capitalism and it meant my son was well aware the house doesn't clean itself, shirts don't iron themselves but require labour which needs and deserves to be paid for.

We shared school run week about; organised sleepovers, birthday parties etc was shared. Emergencies were dealt with by whichever one of us had capacity to deal with it.

I think his school played a big part - co-ed, fee- paying school. I really liked the ethos of the school. I never got the impression that it treated the girls differently from the boys but rather it genuinely encouraged pupils to be the best they can, which, did not mean being an exam factory. Being empathetic, compassionate and recognising their privileges was important.

I've also got 2 boys and a girl. No one in our house ever says 'boys will be boys' but I hear it all the time around school and from relatives.

Any tips for shooting this down without sounding a bit nuts like I feel I do? I think I growled ' kids will be kids' the last time.

We already talk a lot to the kids about what is on the news, so hoping this will mean we can keep talking about wider issues.

I've already shown my oldest the ridiculousness of kids toy adverts. The fact that certain toys are shown only with girls in the ads and others with only boys had him when he saw it over and over. He's pointed out examples of this to me now.

DS2 is a bit more susceptible to 'that's a girl colour' from his peer group, but he does hear from us that anyone can like any colour and play with anything. He had his own dolls before DD came along and they do play together with them.

I work FT and DH is SAHD and does a bit of work round my hours, so they can see we both have jobs to do.

I'm very anxious about Not Fucking Them Up in general tbh! I do try to model good things, but probably fail due to tiredness and overwhelm sometimes.

I think the most important thing is having parents who do 50/50 and show true love and respect to each other and the children. We both work which tbh I think is important personally though I know not everyone agrees with that. I am surrounded by respectful men and I think the key is they've been raised to be independent. My DH was washing clothes, cleaning up after himself from a young age. We've not once in all our years argued over household chores, or childcare come to think of it. There is no expectation that something is one of our jobs, we chip in and will ask for help when needed. I think the best way of seeing the behaviour you want is to do it yourself and it becomes the norm and more likely to be replicated. I think the same can be said for relationships too- being loving, not aggressive, we never argue or swear at each other etc.

Oh and just challenging anything they say that is stereotyped- "that's for girls" "why is that for girls?" Ask them, get them to try to figure out logically why pink must be for girls and they usually see how illogical it is for themselves.

(Sorry that should say we don't argue in front of the kids, of course we have our disagreements! But we don't bring the children into it or do that awful passive aggressive thing of "can you tell your mother...your dad is being too lazy today" etc etc that I grew up with).

I have a son who is a complete pleasure.
Teach him how to cook, iron, clean and keep himself clean.
Teach him to respect women and however hard it is don't clean up after him when he is old enough.
Men need to understand we are not maids.

Oh - weird tangential thought, video games.

We found that limiting the type of video games my son played resulted in a happier, less frustrated boy, who slept better and was less prone to anger.

So, slow moving, building or adventure games were fine, but fast, platform games where failure at a task results in repeating the same stage over and over were very much not fine. This is in the game play itself, rather than themes or age ratings.

This can apply to girls too, of course.

As a parent of daughters I would love boys to be made aware that women’s bodies are not all like Love Island types. That women come in all shapes and sizes and have hair in similar places to men and that they do not need to remove it. Might be a bit early for your DS yet though 😉

I can see a couple of mentions of discussing porn but that's it. Given the headlines this week I'm disappointed that so few appear to be addressing this one.

@CassianAndor my children aren't anywhere near teenage age yet but this is something that concerns me greatly. It overwhelms me to think how we will manage digital issues of pornography and social media etc. I've been told the book Raising Boys has been updated for the digital era.