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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jordan Peterson: Gender politics has no place in the classroom

28 replies

MenstruatorExtraordinaire · 21/06/2019 22:36

nationalpost.com/opinion/jordan-peterson-gender-politics-has-no-place-in-the-classroom/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Whatever you think of Jordan Peterson I think this is a pertinent and well written article.

I really find identity politics absolute nonsense and confusing. When I'm dealing with individuals I don't really care what pronouns they use and to have to pussyfoot around everybody just adds another layer of hassle to social interactions. I agree with him that is narcissistic and also very confusing to children. They just need clear rules I think they don't want to be given all these confusing choices at such an early age.

I am just trying very hard with my children to avoid them becoming indoctrinated with any of this rubbish and to tell them there are no such things as male or female toys or male or female behaviours there are only healthy sexed bodies and a world of experience for both sexes.

OP posts:
LassOfFyvie · 21/06/2019 23:40

Yes, it is a good article.

twicemummy1 · 21/06/2019 23:41

If a man's written what we've been trying to say for decades, then maybe people will pay attention

NonnyMouse1337 · 22/06/2019 04:33

I feel so sorry for Canada. They are so screwed by allowing gender identity to embed itself in the legal structure. I truly hope in the UK we can prevent this from happening.

IAmAlwaysLikeThis · 22/06/2019 04:43

I'm so tired of people listening to right wing males on this matter, while women get attacked, lose their jobs, kicked off twitter etc.

Just so sick of it.

lucasthecat · 22/06/2019 08:12

To be fair to Jordan Peterson they have tried to sack him and he was denied a visiting Professorship at an Oxbridge College. He is a bit wordy - but he is always consistent - and does tell the angry young men who fan boy him - to stop watching porn - tidy their rooms and lives up - so not the MRA fascist people make him out to be

AncientLights · 22/06/2019 08:19

However, as Petersen points out, the teacher said there's no real girls or real boys. So both ways. The parents of a distressed girl have brought the case. Quite rightly, IMO.

I am interested in what the parents of boys feel about this. Are they not similarly affected & bothered by it? Or are they able to ignore it, knowing it has no real meaning for them? That they will be allowed to go on being boys, whatever that might mean to them, whereas a girl feels her innermost self threatened by this.

I have no answers, just wondering about it.

lucasthecat · 22/06/2019 08:39

I think those that will be impacted by the teacher absolute statement ‘there are no real girls or boys’ are the sensitive thoughtful children as mentioned in the article - but also non gender conforming children of both sexes - so rather than a boy who likes nurturing games or a girl who likes tree climbing - you get children convinced they are the wrong body - providing a group of young people for predators and businesses to access and influence

LangCleg · 22/06/2019 08:55

Agree with most of it. Just the rigidity of the only acceptable family shape to take exception to.

Sigh.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 22/06/2019 09:07

yes, it's the overlapping venn diagram again isn't it? Jordan Peterson is in the conservative circle, his views only coincide in certain areas with feminists. in others his views are diametrically opposed to those of feminists

I started wading through it last night, but it was 11:30, I was two drinks down and it is written in Petersonese. I'll give it another go now....

LangCleg · 22/06/2019 09:20

it's the overlapping venn diagram again isn't it?

Yep.

hipsterfun · 22/06/2019 10:04

I started wading through it last night, but it was 11:30, I was two drinks down and it is written in Petersonese.

I love a bit of Petersonese.

I wish he’d address the issue of why the kinds of work associated with female people tend to be undervalued and under-rewarded, and whether that is a problem it would be reasonable to address.

(Blush if he did. It’s only 10am and I’ve had no croissant!)

PackingSoap · 22/06/2019 10:14

I've got time for Peterson, even though I strongly disagree with him about feminism and other matters. He's one of the only public figures telling young men to take responsibility for themselves.

But reading his article, I'm struck again by a particular absence that I see whenever issues of identity politics are discussed, even when the connection to narcissism is mentioned, and that is that this modern presentation of identity politics, this rabbit hole of internalisation we are seeing, will categorically fail to prepare young people to navigate the real world outside of institutional walls.

More precisely, that nowhere in this debate is there any recognition that considered actions that lead to tangible, material, positive results is one of the key pathways to self-contentment, self-esteem and self-actualisation.

In short, it is what you do, rather than what you are, that delivers a secure identity within the self. Not only that, but it is what you do that creates markers for greater personal meaning.

I read an article years ago that forecast the impact of this lack of understanding of the importance of tangible endeavour. If you were a navvie 150 years ago, you could point to a piece of track and say "I made that", "I achieved that". You had left something on the earth; you had done something you could see and touch. The writer made the point that young people are not being taught how important the pursuit of this type of tangible endeavour is, and that in their view, it was going to lead to a mass crisis of the self.

Which, you could argue, has kinda happened.

Now I would have expected Peterson to discuss these sorts of issues because we are now in the midst of a cultural obsession with who we are, rather than what we do. But he doesn't, and I find that quite perplexing.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 22/06/2019 10:18

Really interesting post PackingSoap (and precisely the kind of post I come to FWR to read if I may say so!)

hipsterfun · 22/06/2019 16:33

Seconded.

Tangible endeavour is why people quit highly paid jobs in financial services to bake cupcakes for a living. Crisis of the self indeed.

What about that JP MN webchat? Did it ever happen?

RuffleCrow · 22/06/2019 16:47

I was more or less with him til he started going on about the social evils of fatherlessness. Hmm

Could it possibly be that the psychological damage to those children was done by the father prior to leaving? Or during visitation out of sight of the mother (as per the standard court order for children of abusive men here and in the US)?? For someone who criticises others for lack of critical thinking he really should take a look in the mirror. Twit.

RuffleCrow · 22/06/2019 17:00

Funny how these right wing men always think divorce and separation are a cause of social problems rather than a symptom. Because of course before women had the right to get divorced or live without men EVERYTHING was perfect: no drugs, no crime, no public hangings as a form of entertainment. Hmm

AlwaysComingHome · 22/06/2019 17:25

I think his point that identity is negotiated rather than something you can simply assert is important. He has said, for instance, that he’d happily use people’s chosen pronouns but he won’t be forced into it. Most of us ‘negotiate’ our identity all the time. I’m a different person at work or at home or with friends. Not in some split-personality way, but I know when to ‘slip into character’.

I think a lot of trouble younger people have is that they think they are the same person all the time and they can’t figure out why behaving like you do with your friends won’t fly at home or at work.

Peterson is a conservative and, equally cranky in my opinion, a Jungian, but his work on personality types is highly regarded.

Stripped of his ideological biases, his core message - tidy your room! - is not only good advice, it’s one that his core audience might actually follow.

He actually reminds me of Jethro Gibbs in NCIS and his homely, no-bullshit ‘Rules’.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 22/06/2019 17:38

That's a great post PackingSoap. And so very true.
The catastrophic fawning over and celebrating children 'choosing' a new sex (advocated by the toxic lobby groups) does these children such a massive disservice. In complete contrast to the achievement and personal satisfaction of collaborating with others, participating in sport, singing, being creative, enjoying and being part of a family, group or network, learning and working to grasp a skill and overcome an obstacle and so on.

And 'tidy your room' indeed.....

LangCleg · 22/06/2019 18:05

I think his point that identity is negotiated rather than something you can simply assert is important.

Completely agree. Complex human societies cannot function if everyone's going about in a fog of narcissistic individualism, obsessed with the identity of the self, and with the assumption that other people don't exist/are irrelevant.

Queer theory, which introduced this world view, is a pestilence.

AlwaysComingHome · 22/06/2019 18:30

Conservative thinkers get lumped together in much the same way that Left-Wing thinkers do but there are clear divisions within both groups.

Peterson’s conservatism places society above the individual, albeit a very traditional form of society.

It’s an older form of conservatism than the ‘No such thing as society/You can be what you want to be’ brand of conservatism of Thatcher and Reagan.

Caucho · 22/06/2019 20:45

Jordan Peterson seems to be castigated as he comes across as a smug know it all when he speaks. He also is portrayed and categorised with the far right because he is popular and revered by many people who are far right. I’ve never ever seen him write or say anything far right though. I suppose if you were super critical you’d say despite not being far right they’re the ones who pay the bills and he’s happy to take their money. Which also might tempt him purely from a selfish and money-oriented basis to pander to that in order to make a few bob extra.

I’ve never really found most of his stuff particularly outrageous or controversial but despite being a highly regarded academic, he can be challenged by others of similar ilk but his dye in the wool fans think he’s some kind of oracle

Caucho · 22/06/2019 20:54

The campaign against him about visiting and giving lectures at Cambridge was completely due to a few TRAs and he was smeared as some type of BNP type bloke when he was invited due to his academic qualifications and background.

The left is now like the right. Completely facist and authoritarian where people are no longer allowed to have a different viewpoint without being called Hitler. Anyone who says no debate about anything is an idiot

AlwaysComingHome · 22/06/2019 21:13

I don’t think he’s a Great Intellectual but then again I don’t think there are Great Intellectuals in the sense that, say, Bertrand Russell might have been. Knowledge is way too fragmented, and an in-depth knowledge in a specialist subject doesn’t translate into general knowledge. I mean, who is there these days? Chomsky still won’t admit the Khmer Rouge committed atrocities and nobody knows what the hell Slavoj Zizek is on about. Are there polymaths who can discourse on everything from the Higgs bosun to the Mesopotamians?

ALittleBitofVitriol · 22/06/2019 21:31

I think Peterson is an interesting guy. He has some decent things to say and plays that 'father figure telling young men what they need to hear' character well - and I do think it's a character that we need. He seems really genuine to me, I've heard him express heartfelt emotion. I have a lot of time for someone who is capable of public honesty.

I do disagree with him on quite a few things and I really eschew the hero worship stuff, which is still just the identity politics he speaks against.

Dervel · 22/06/2019 23:17

A jack of all trades is master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.