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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Islamophobia as a tool of the religious right to suppress dissent

67 replies

NonnyMouse1337 · 20/06/2019 10:40

I don't know if Maryam Namazie is gender critical or a RadFem but I have always admired her left wing and feminist stance against Islamic political and religious right wing movements. She is one of the few people on the left that denounces identity politics and it always pleases me to no end how uncomfortable she makes a lot of 'progressives' because she points out the issues with viewing all Muslim people as some monolith that needs unquestioning support, and oppressive clothing like the hijab are 'empowering' for Muslim women.

It's a really good article and I especially liked this bit -
Like ‘Britishness’, the concept of ‘Muslimness’ is fundamentally about exclusion. Britishness tends to exclude brown and black people. Muslimness tends to exclude doubters and dissenters – anyone not ‘authentically’ regressive enough, not veiled enough, not segregated enough, not submissive enough, not pro-Sharia enough, not modest enough, not angry enough and not offended enough. Everyone else is an ‘Islamophobe’, an ‘Uncle Tom’, a ‘native informant’, a ‘coconut’ or a ‘westernised, neo-colonialist.’

sister-hood.com/maryam-namazie/defining-islamophobia/

Maybe this isn't the best place to post this article, but most libfem and leftie spaces online cannot comprehend any critique of Islam and Islamic practices. Like the trans topic, they conflate anything other than unquestioning support as an indication of bigotry against Muslims.

The religious far right and the political far right are two sides of the same coin. As an Indian woman who spent the first 18 years of my life in Kuwait, I'm still immensely disappointed at the huge betrayal of the Left and Feminism in general in Western politics in its alignment with the religious far right in its desperate attempt to score points and 'appear' progressive. I can only hope the cancer of identity politics can be removed and replaced with actual solidarity.

Anyway, hopefully some others find it an interesting read as well. :)

OP posts:
BogglesGoggles · 20/06/2019 18:25

I completely agree. I am from a Muslim background. Islamaphobia is shorthand for ‘you don’t agree with me and I can’t cope with that’. Nasty business.

TheChampagneGalop · 20/06/2019 19:18

Thank you for bringing this up OP.
I was walking down Whitechapel Road in London the other day and the area has a big and quite hardcore Muslim community. During my short walk, I passed more than a few women in niqab and little girls in hijab. Feel free to call me "phobic" of the sight of 6-7 years old girls in hijab walking next to their bare-headed brothers. It's heart-breaking.

Endofthedays · 20/06/2019 21:45

The Marxist element in Catholicism is pretty well known. DD just covered it in her A level exams.

AlwaysComingHome · 20/06/2019 21:53

Liberation theology was never ‘orthodox’ Catholicism, and it wasn’t communist war criminals the church protected after WWII. The Church has always vehemently opposed communism.

Endofthedays · 20/06/2019 22:07

I’ve read some sections of the actual report:

static1.squarespace.com/static/599c3d2febbd1a90cffdd8a9/t/5bfd1ea3352f531a6170ceee/1543315109493/Islamophobia+Defined.pdf

Having read some of it particularly the section on free speech, I do believe it’s a dangerous definition and is bringing in blasphemy laws by the back door.

Endofthedays · 20/06/2019 22:10

This Catholic thing is just nitpicking. Liberation theology has been a huge movement in parts of central and South America.

Goosefoot · 20/06/2019 22:29

20th century communism and Marxism aren't the same thing. And JP II wasn't a fan of any of it either, he wasn't especially keen on either a personal level.

But you can't say Oscar Romero or Dorothy Day weren't orthodox. And the same kind of thing is true in some other branches of Christianity, there are significant groups that are very leftist in economic/political terms but quite conservative religiously and socially.

twicemummy1 · 20/06/2019 23:49

Im an atheist so don't like religion.
I don't think Islam is particularly misogynistic compared to Christianity. All religions are misogynistic. Islam did give women inheritance rights and certain custody rights over their children upon divorce but nothing to write home about. And yeah, western women are expected to be sexualized and feminine and we're definitely not allowed to age. Whereas if you can put something over your head and face when you're an older woman maybe people would be more tolerant of you cluttering up the landscape. I still despise the connotation that women are the property of men though by wearing the scarf. Then again, make up and femininity posits a woman as property of all men, public property, if you like, rather than just the property of her father and husband. That's why prostitutes were called painted ladies. Maybe the scarf offers some protection from rape because men are less likely to rape a woman who is showing by her dress that she is owned by and is the property of a particular man. Then again I wouldn't count on that as a rape deterrent.

AlwaysComingHome · 21/06/2019 01:37

I’m still seeing oppressive dress codes justified as a means of deterring rape. Bullshit it is. It has nothing to do with protecting women from rape. It is about controlling women.

If ‘modest’ dress was to deter rape why the fucking fuck would women be raped as a punishment for not fucking wearing it? Are they raping women to remind them in future not to go out ‘immodestly’ dressed and risk getting raped again?

Dervel · 21/06/2019 12:06

I think you can avoid bigotry if you are willing to be educated about it. I have every respect for the Islamic cultural contributions to the world. The renaissance pretty much sparked in the Islamic world first. They saved and expanded knowledge and philosophy and advanced the fields of mathematics and natural philosophy. It was even more progressive with regards to women’s rights relative to Europe in the Middle Ages.

It is the ultra conservative and fundamentalist sect of Wahhabism which is where the problems lie, and indeed every religion that has its fundamentalist extremes can run into the same problems especially when it comes to women. I think you can frame advocates for women’s rights to be against religious fundamentalism and extremism as it’s usually those ideologies that women fare worse under. You don’t need to target Islam exclusively to make that point.

Indeed there are some areas like Indonesia where they have had a female head of state, 51% of the workforce are women and it’s an 87% Muslim country. Women’s rights do not have to be incompatible with a practice of Islam.

Indeed the extremists want to promote intolerance and Islamaphobia in the hopes it will push moderates in their direction.

twicemummy1 · 21/06/2019 12:32

@AlwaysComingHome I agree with you. And i was pointing out that even if it was in some way a rape deterrent it's nothing at all to do with men not being able to see your hair and shape and everything to do with men's understanding of rape only ever being a crime if the woman belongs to another man. So the crime would be committed against her husband or her father. That's why rape sometimes gets punished. It's rare for rape to be seen in law as a crime committed against the woman herself.

Goosefoot · 21/06/2019 16:55

But what counts as appropriate or inappropriate isn't objective, it always has a strong cultural component. Our culture is no different, certain body parts are covered and that's what we consider respectful and appropriate. Someone from a culture that wears less could say, gee, look at those Europeans that have to wear shirts around, they must be really oppressed. They must be thinking that they are avoiding rape by wearing them but its not true, if they were really free they would just not do it.
A headscarf is not a particularly oppressive physical garment, it's not larger or more difficult to wear than a shirt, it's not like the kind of full body coverage some places demand that make a real difference to what women can do or how they relate to others. It's probably not a irrelevant either that in some of those cultures men cover their heads outdoors too for environmental reasons, weather impacts a lot of what different cultures consider normal dress.
It isn't helping women be free by getting hung up on relatively small differences in what is considered normal clothing, it just makes it look like we think the historical accidents of what westerners like are somehow objective standards that everyone should accept. It suggests we can't reflect in a substantial way on out own customs, Given that we also have our own issues with women's clothing why would another culture accept we have anything of value to offer, if we are so caught up in our own customary ideas as objective realities?

TheChampagneGalop · 21/06/2019 18:10

^A headscarf is not a particularly oppressive physical garment,

It isn't helping women be free by getting hung up on relatively small differences in what is considered normal clothing^

Dang! Someone tell the women and girls in Iran this. Then they could avoid getting arrested for doing silly things like refusing to wear non-oppressive veils.
www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-january-31-2018-1.4510938/iranian-women-risk-arrest-as-they-remove-their-veils-for-whitewednesdays-1.4510942

Antibles · 21/06/2019 18:49

Yes we do indeed still have arbitrary moral restrictions on clothing in the West but, for me, the thing about the hijab is that it is an additional restriction upon women. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I would actually love to be able to go topless on hot days without the outrageous sexual overtones it would have in our culture. It would certainly help with breastfeeding rates. In fact, I'm a bit of a naturist at heart and feel that if we were truly emancipated, there would be no clothing restrictions with moral overtones, only ones around hygiene.

It seems that any area of the body women are expected to cover up becomes fetishised by men. Doesn't matter how much or how little. So for me, the hijab is an additional restriction encouraging further fetishisation and moral judgement of women who show more.

On a related note, I've been a swimming club member for years and blokes seem to manage perfectly well around scantily clad women there without permanent stiffies so I do feel that demands to cover up are mostly a smokescreen for control.

NonnyMouse1337 · 22/06/2019 03:56

Goosefoot a headscarf is something only a Muslim woman is supposed to wear, and never a Muslim man. Any head covering he does wear can be taken off, but a woman must wear it at all times in public and while praying. It is because the Islamic belief views women's bodies as objects of temptation and sin. Women 'tempt' men and rather than make men accountable for their actions, there is a collective religious and cultural expectation that women should cover up to prevent men from sinning. Poor things, Muslim men, they just can't help themselves, you know!
It's also why Muslim women have to pray in separate rooms from men in mosques. They usually get the shitty back rooms. If they do pray in the same hall, women have to be right at the back. Men can't help but look at women's arses otherwise when kneeling to pray. Couldn't possibly ask men to exert some decency and self-control in an area of worship.

On social media, comparisons are frequently made that women who do not wear the hijab are like uncovered sweets... for flies (men) to land on and defile.
i2.wp.com/www.sociable7.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/women-lollipops.jpg?ssl=1

This is the message Muslim women are subjected to from an early age. Free choice and empowering my fucking arse.

I would suggest you read the personal stories of Ex-muslims, especially women Ex-Muslims. I've read accounts where she cries with joy after deciding she would no longer wear the hijab. Why? Because she had forgotten what it feels like to have the wind in your hair. A simple pleasure the rest of us women take for granted. Broke my heart.

OP posts:
MangoFeverDream · 22/06/2019 04:20

All religions are misogynistic. Islam did give women inheritance rights and certain custody rights over their children upon divorce

Yes, Islam was very progressive.... like, 800 years ago. Hasn’t progressed much since then however Hmm

Whereas if you can put something over your head and face when you're an older woman maybe people would be more tolerant of you cluttering up the landscape

Ok, this is ridiculous. The veil is literally erasure and cuts you off from public life. I live in the Middle East tho, so see women at the beach just sitting on the sand in their black outfits while the men and children have fun Angry

LassOfFyvie · 22/06/2019 09:57

Whereas if you can put something over your head and face when you're an older woman maybe people would be more tolerant of you cluttering up the landscape

I agree - that is ridiculous, and not just for the reason you give.

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