GC 18 yr old applying to study philosophy... any advice?

[MumAngst]

Are there any obvious places to avoid for a GC 18 yr old applying for philosophy? Anywhere she studies she knows that there may well be unisex loos and woke "feminist" societies. But she doesn't want to be in a department where she is forced to aquiesce to a gender belief system she does not share - though is happy to be challenged and to debate all that. "No debate" is her concern, and also that in departments with no staff who accept sex, if she experiences sexism how would they respond.

She'll be applying for just philosophy in some places and as a joint honours Oxbridge/perhaps others. I suspect the college would make a difference when it comes to Oxbridge?

Feel free to PM if it would be outing (I'm a long term regular and will share my usual name privately).

Well as a mature student of a large university can I say that there is now no such thing as GC in universities. I have had heated discussions with lecturers on this to no avail. They have all drunk the Kool aid. To the extent that I would urge people who are GC to avoid the humanities and study science if at all possible (I know this is no help to you but hope you get some more positive news).

There are certainly GC academics in Philosophy at Sussex, Keele and York. In reality (I work in a humanities department), a large number of academics are gender critical, they are just not open about it. Students too. Outside of Sociology departments, I would be astonished if you would find large numbers of academics who believe that sex is a social construct.

I don't have any knowledge or expertise myself but seeing what has happened to other GC academics particularly in the field of philosophy I would be concerned she is going to have a bit of a rough time.

Honestly if I was a teen again now I think I would study maths.

Apparently the reason the Soviet Union churned out a lot of brilliant mathematicians at one point was because people recognised it as a subject that was almost impossible to corrupt with political propaganda. (Can't remember where I read this - probably on here).

Thats helpful, thanks. I knew about Sussex and Keele but not York.

I'm encouraging the other part of the joint honours she's interested in, as its a field where there will be more balance.

That's quite a generalisation, Anna. Not one person in my humanities department has "drunk the kool aid". Most of us have managed to retain our critical faculties. I admit there is a problem with younger people coming into the profession, who are unable to differentiate academia from activism, but the main problem is people not being willing to speak up out of fear. You can see how things work, as the academics who signed the letter in the Sunday Times the other day are now being set upon by the Twitter mob. The aim is to deter any more academics from speaking out. As for studying science, the mob attacking Kathleen Stock et al includes a research fellow in mathematics, proving that there's no escape from misogynists using trans issues to attack women.

Does anyone have any info re Durham?

Agree with GCAcademic. Almost all the academics I know will use preferred pronouns but don’t believe that sex is socially constructed. Most are simply not interested enough to take a stand or too frightened to.

Can she email members of staff? I'm sure email addresses are available online. Ask them what their take is on whether transwomen are women. Submit applications accordingly. It's a two way street.

True, Antibles. Maybe she should. We're trying to ask at open days but the reality is that its mostly other students she gets to speak to, rather than staff.

I certainly wouldn't answer that question over the email to someone I don't know. I don't think it's fair to put staff in that position. Best approach this at open days by saying that you've seen the toxicity and superficiality of the debate around gender playing out between philosophers online, and that you would like to know how the department supports rigourous and civil debate around such issues.

Noting down that phaseology!

She needs to stalk academics better at open days I suspect.

@GCAcademic I know I am being harsh, just my experience at a top university in the past 2 years. I have advised my DD and my DN not to study humanities because of this - they are both GC.

You are a hero of mine on these pages and I always admire your contribution - I have just been on the receiving end of criticism from senior lecturers and I am a middle aged woman so I think it would possible destroy the confidence of a younger woman.

I agree with the person re maths and science - the facts of maths and chemistry cannot really be argued to change on the whims of a society undergoing a collective delusion.

Spreadsheet time!

(It worked for DDs medicine application, but should also work for other subjects.)

Get a list of philosophy departments and paste them into Excel. Delete those whose entry grades are too high or too low. Delete those whose locations really don't appeal. Campus or City? Accommodation options and cost? How far from home? Other stuff: good hockey team; lots of drama; party reputation?

That should make it manageable.

Then think about what interests her most. Is it logic and maths, or politics etc and look at the courses. What courses are compulsory in the first and second years. What options are available, including outside options. This should narrow it down a bit. If you don't like maths you really don't want to be taking a maths and philosophy type course, whilst she might find some offer some great options (study abroad?).

Then look at staff within the department. What have they published. Are these the sort of things you would like to read? (If you find a whole lot of gender bollocks, then rule them out.) Being taught by a leader in a field which interests you is fun.

Or a bit left field, but if she is interested in feminist thought, Dr Jane Clare Jones both offers courses in feminist thought feminist-institute.org/ and does some tutoring. (I am tempted to ask DH to buy the course for me for Christmas. I am a JCJ fangirl.) When my DS was doing his Masters, economics not philosophy, he got paid via a tutor agency for helping a first year UG, almost certainly an overseas student, with options choices. It struck me as a good idea, in that it would be useful to know which courses were useful for future years, which were well taught and fun, etc. Would it be possible to identify someone within the area that interests her most and who knows the higher education landscape who might, for the equivalent of a tutoring fee, take her through the pros and cons of her preferred courses.

Anna: if they want to study humanities, please don’t discourse them. It’s highly unlikely that they’ll be caught in these debates over their whole degree, if at all. Those of us who argue for free speech in universities do so on the basis that students’ views will be, must be, challenged rather than indulged. Your DD and DN should be prepared to accept this if they want others to do so. That doesn’t mean putting up with bullying or outright lies. But it does meaning learning to argue their cases.

Discourage them FFS.

@nonsenceagain yes well DD leaning towards science anyway but DN is taking humanities and economics so she can determine where she wants to go after 12 months of combined degree.

I just feel a little raw on this as I was forced to change a research project (I already had a research background before I went back to college, from my first degree and subsequent work) to comply with the new gender theory. It was a small item but it caused a row and a lot of ill feeling for me and it ended up that no one ticked the stupid box anyway!!!!

Please don't email members of staff with such a question. For a start she would have to email every single lecturer in that dept as she would have no idea who would teach her which modules.

But academics will always be available on open days and she should be able to talk to them and ask them then.

I’m sorry you went through that and it would piss me off too. But you can do plenty of research in an effort to avoid this sort of thing.

Also, please don’t email academics directly about it. I wouldn’t reply either, unless I knew and trusted you.

Thinking about it a bit more, when DS was considering his course I managed to find a recent and successful economics graduate who sat down with DS and talked through the pros and cons of similarly ranked courses. He had been at UCL, but rated LSE as well. Cambridge was a bit "old fashioned", and there were caveats on Warwick, Bristol etc. Looking back six years his advice was pretty much spot on. It maybe helped that he and DS were interested in similar areas, but it still would have helped DS' thinking if their interests had been divergent.

Ask as many people you can to see if you can find some good and engaged, current UG or Masters students or recent graduates. Oddly I recently had dinner with a friend of DDs who was studying philosophy, who was interested in working in a field I am familiar with. From the outside the University has a bit of a woke reputation. We did not discuss this but it looked as if he was firmly focussed on maths/logic anyway. I assume that gender theory and logic don't mix well .

I agree with others that there are GC academics everywhere and that most people do not in any way believe the rubbish that Sally Hines et al spout. I know that this is probably a genuine post but I would avoid mentioning and messaging names of anyone you know who is not ‘out’. I personally do not in any way believe that sex is a social construct or that it is (as Hines argues) irrelevant to the modern feminist movement. But I am early career and I have seen the disgusting vitriol heaped on people who dare say even what I have said. I can’t take that at the moment. I continue to write and publish as if the past few years have not happened but I will not make my views public.

Another of DD 's friends is unwilling to pay to study medical ethics at the same University. But they did run a whole conference on trans healthcare including TELI, Mermaids and some interesting Californians earlier this year.

In short, work out who will be teaching you and decide whether they appeal. I am sure it is perfectly possible to have inspiring teaching at Leeds, even if Sally Hines is on the staff.

We're not going anywhere near even Leeds open day, after reading Sally Hines on Twitter, TBH. Between that and what is going on elsewhere in the city, DD has no interest.

It’s good that she can see through the bullshit though. People always trot out that there is a such a big generation gap with these things. In reality, I think a large number of young people can think critically- it’s just a vocal blue-haired mob who love to say that T*s are part of the ‘older generation’ and less relevant. Including a 35 year old man who told a 36 year old woman that very thing. You couldn’t make it up.

I'm an academic at a post 92 institution and my colleagues in humanities are probably half and half, GC-wise. To avoid the super woke universities, stay clear of Bristol (signs in female toilets telling them to ignore anyone who looks like they're in the wrong toilet and "protect them from harm". The whole (trans) feminine vulnerability narrative taken to extreme), Sheffield, Edinburgh (although they hosted a GC event very recently but there's now huge pushback), also Reading, UWE. They are the ones I'm pretty certain about. But I think that as a student, a person is less exposed than as an academic, because a student can't be fired and if other students give you grief you can start an anti-bullying procedure through the dignity advisors.

Yes, Leeds - how could I forget Leeds....